Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your source is either mathematically illiterate or thinks it's audience are mathematically illiterate, or both.
My source is a reputed expert in non proliferation geopolitics who has written extensively on China’s and North Korea’s ballistic missile program. We can safely assume that he knows what he’s talking when it comes to ballistic missiles. What exactly are your credentials?
Why don't you look up a dart board and its 3x and 2x rings, why do you think the 3x ring is 3x? Because the statistical probability of randomly hitting a small band on a circular probability distribution is very small.
Now overlay the dart board on a 100m circle over the air base and compare the relative width of the taxi way to the 3x ring on a dart board.
Why do you keep assuming that the distribution will be circular? This just betrays how ignorant you are on the subject.
Also Iranian missiles don't cost $3M
These were not the cheap, laughably inaccurate missiles Iran fired in April. It’s a solid fuel hypersonic missile with at least an order of magnitude better accuracy.
 

Luke Warmwar

New Member
Registered Member
  1. This is not a photograph from the airbase so the image has little or no relation to what happened there.
  2. The crater on the image is an impact crater formed by kinetic energy and not an explosion.
  3. The images show very little of the damage to draw conclusions even about the strike shown.
  4. There is no reliable information about the date of the strike shown on the image. It is a common practice to publish outdated information during the chaotic flood of data following any ongoing event, especially as media outlets fight for attention.
Whatever happened here has very little relevance to estimating effects of the strike at Nevatim AB. If indeed this is an impact from Oct 1st then based on what is shown on the images the most likely explanation is an pressure blast and debris scatter caused by kinetic energy from the impact. It is fairly plausible that it was caused by a missile fragment.

A quick calculation at the other side of the napkin:

The speed of an object falling in Earth's gravity (acceleration g) from an altitude of h is the square root of 2gh [m/s] - irrelevant of mass. Any already possessed momentum will add to the terminal speed - all velocity vectors considered. The speed of an object falling from 1000m is 141m/s. From 10 000m it is 447m/s i.e. supersonic. From higher altitudes even more so.

If the fragment was a relatively dense object with mass of 500kg falling from 10 000m it would strike the ground with kinetic energy of 50MJ. For comparison 1t TNT is 4 184 MJ so the kinetic impact generates a comparative yield of 12 kg tnt. For comparison the explosive filling of M795 155mm shell is 10,8kg. If the missile fell from a higher altitude the energy would be greater as it scales with the square of velocity unlike mass.



You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle.

Wikipedia's IDF equipment list includes 250 M109A5 and small numbers of towed 155mm or M110 203mm. There is a similarly limited number of rocket artillery systems (100?). Similarly they have only about 50 attack helicopters, half of which are old AH-64A. Those assets are support measures for 400 active and 900 stored tanks and a structure consisting in total (active and reserve) of 13 armoured and 20 infantry brigades

IDF Ground Force relies on air support to an extent that is commonly, and incorrectly, attributed to the US Army. 33 brigades in US Army with smilar split (13 armoured, 20 infantry) would constitute 11 divisions commanding 528 attack helicopters, a minnimum of 704 artillery pieces and 198 rocket artillery systems (and 297 in new structure). The number of tanks would match that in IDF but all the fire support assets are completely insufficient.

The over-reliance on the air force is IDF's Achilles' heel. Consider how much harder the intervention in Gaza after 7/10 would be without air support.

Furthermore IDF having specialised in limited military operations in the occupied territories and Lebanon has insufficient numbers of heavy armoured vehicles. M113s are useful for contemporary battlefield - they work in Ukraine because Russia is similarly under-equipped, with old and unergonomic BMPs and BTRs. But in hilly terrains M113s will not provide necessary protection. IDF ground forces will therefore be over-reliant on its tanks and will inevitably have to resort to building fortified areas to protect its infantry.

No air support means that with extremely limited supply of attack helicopters, limited artillery and insufficiently protected APCs any ground war would reduce IDF to a force that would be peer to Arab militias that would be able to generate numbers with greater ease.

This is what I wrote in my posts immediately after 7/10 - in relative terms IDF of 1967 and 1973 is not the IDF of 2023. It is much more an asymmetric conflict occupation force than a full spectrum peer conflict force. The only factor that balances the scales is the air force. Remove that and you don't need state level actors engaging in direct military intervention. All that is necessary is endless stream of people willing to fight like in Syria or Iraq and Israel will be overwhelmed within 6 to 12 months.

Israel would have to replace its air force within months and that's just not possible.



Israel lacks the ability to conduct suppression because they only have 25 F-15E and 40 F-35A. F-16s are great for airstrikes within 500km radius but not for missions at 1000km or more. Furthermore for IDF to conduct those strikes they will likely need support of refuelers, only to fly in a straight line over Syria and Iraq, and they simply don't have enough of them - 7 B707 and 7 KC-130.

Just in terms of geographical space Iran has many more sites capable of hiding and launching missiles than Israel has sites capable of providing security for assets and necessary servicing for the air force to continue fighting.

Look up my Desert Storm thread - all the information necessary to understand a modern air campaign in hard numbers is there. Israel has a force capable of attacking select strategic targets in Iran but not to conduct a suppression campaign.

And that's considering that it would have all the information necessary - Iran is preparing for an American intervention, not an Israeli one. They are considering an operation lasting many days that includes strategic bombers and a massed cruise missile strike e.g. a launch from Ohio SSGN.



Where exactly? And even if that was feasible the likely outcome of such operation would be internment of aircraft and pilots. Remember that any IDF pilots is a potential suspect in a war crimes investigation by the ICC so the excuse to intern is extremely convenient as it is a neutral action.



In April the intercepts were likely assisted by USN DDGs in theater as well as other systems like the US THAAD battery. The second strike was not announced so only the assets in range were able to respond. THAAD is a terminal phase defense and Arrow 3 would be used only against targets with sufficient flight parameters.

Israel is definitely attempting to preserve the missiles because from what I read it seems that they never intended to fight a prolonged campaign requiring multiple days of exo-atmospheric intercepts.

It may be possible that Iran chose to attack in an unpredictable patterns of limited strikes to exhaust Israeli and allied ABM assets while retaining a somewhat muddy picture of what their intentions are - thus not triggering an all-out US military response.

A lot will depend on what Israel forces through as retaliatory measure. We're only one month away from the most important election in living memory, and arguably since 1940.

The most important factor is the actual number of Iranian missiles. If they have enough of them to neutralise Israeli air force and disrupt any land-based allied operation they may play aggressively because the US has only capabilities allowing it a single full-spectrum operation globally. They can sustain and even expand their operations in Europe because of allies but not elsewhere. So it's either Middle East or West Pacific. And if US gets involved in the Middle East, with all the consequences to global markets resulting from that conflict, then China can take a leisurely stroll to Taiwan and the US won't be able to do anything about it.

And that too is a calculation that must be at the back of the mind of everyone involved - Iranians, Chinese, American, Israeli etc.
I’ve been enjoying your contributions to this thread. They have a certain degree of rigour to them.

Regarding your assessment that, sans airforce, the IDF would be on par with other regional players: where do Israel’s nuclear weapons fit into that equation?

Do we know anything about their weapons? Are they tactical or purely strategic? Would they be able to give the IDF the edge in an airforce-less conflict?
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
My source is a reputed expert in non proliferation geopolitics who has written extensively on China’s and North Korea’s ballistic missile program. We can safely assume that he knows what he’s talking when it comes to ballistic missiles. What exactly are your credentials?

Why do you keep assuming that the distribution will be circular? This just betrays how ignorant you are on the subject.

These were not the cheap, laughably inaccurate missiles Iran fired in April. It’s a solid fuel hypersonic missile with at least an order of magnitude better accuracy.
1 - Argument from Authority is a classic logical fallacy, and you picked a mathematically illiterate authority at that.
2 - Do you know what the C in CEP stand for?
3 - A two-stage solid fuel KZ-1 orbital launch vehicle sells for $5M per launch, you think a one stage 1500km IRBM cost $3M?
 

JJD1803

Junior Member
Registered Member
Looks like the Israelis might do their strike against Iran tonight. Never has a conflict has given me a pit in my stomach like this. I’ve followed the Syrian civil war,Libyan civil wars, Yemen civil wars, the ISIS wars in Iraq, the Donbas wars and the Russo-Ukraine war. This is conflict that could spiral out of control, has massive economic ramifications and could see the use of nukes. It’s insane that the events of a year ago has led to this. It’s like WW1. One small event leading to a conflagration. What a disaster.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
1 - Argument from Authority is a classic logical fallacy, and you picked a mathematically illiterate authority at that.
It wasn’t an argument. I was citing a source. You’ve yet to demonstrate what exactly is wrong there, other than making a lot of noise.
2 - Do you know what the C in CEP stand for?
When ballistic missiles are concerned the distribution is not circular.
3 - A two-stage solid fuel KZ-1 orbital launch vehicle sells for $5M per launch, you think a one stage 1500km IRBM cost $3M?
Does China manufacture Iran’s MRBM? I didn’t think so. Whatever it costs in China is irrelevant.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
  1. This is not a photograph from the airbase so the image has little or no relation to what happened there.
  2. The crater on the image is an impact crater formed by kinetic energy and not an explosion.
  3. The images show very little of the damage to draw conclusions even about the strike shown.
  4. There is no reliable information about the date of the strike shown on the image. It is a common practice to publish outdated information during the chaotic flood of data following any ongoing event, especially as media outlets fight for attention.
Whatever happened here has very little relevance to estimating effects of the strike at Nevatim AB. If indeed this is an impact from Oct 1st then based on what is shown on the images the most likely explanation is an pressure blast and debris scatter caused by kinetic energy from the impact. It is fairly plausible that it was caused by a missile fragment.

A quick calculation at the other side of the napkin:

The speed of an object falling in Earth's gravity (acceleration g) from an altitude of h is the square root of 2gh [m/s] - irrelevant of mass. Any already possessed momentum will add to the terminal speed - all velocity vectors considered. The speed of an object falling from 1000m is 141m/s. From 10 000m it is 447m/s i.e. supersonic. From higher altitudes even more so.

If the fragment was a relatively dense object with mass of 500kg falling from 10 000m it would strike the ground with kinetic energy of 50MJ. For comparison 1t TNT is 4 184 MJ so the kinetic impact generates a comparative yield of 12 kg tnt. For comparison the explosive filling of M795 155mm shell is 10,8kg. If the missile fell from a higher altitude the energy would be greater as it scales with the square of velocity unlike mass.

You're approaching the problem from the wrong angle.

Wikipedia's IDF equipment list includes 250 M109A5 and small numbers of towed 155mm or M110 203mm. There is a similarly limited number of rocket artillery systems (100?). Similarly they have only about 50 attack helicopters, half of which are old AH-64A. Those assets are support measures for 400 active and 900 stored tanks and a structure consisting in total (active and reserve) of 13 armoured and 20 infantry brigades

IDF Ground Force relies on air support to an extent that is commonly, and incorrectly, attributed to the US Army. 33 brigades in US Army with smilar split (13 armoured, 20 infantry) would constitute 11 divisions commanding 528 attack helicopters, a minnimum of 704 artillery pieces and 198 rocket artillery systems (and 297 in new structure). The number of tanks would match that in IDF but all the fire support assets are completely insufficient.

The over-reliance on the air force is IDF's Achilles' heel. Consider how much harder the intervention in Gaza after 7/10 would be without air support.

Furthermore IDF having specialised in limited military operations in the occupied territories and Lebanon has insufficient numbers of heavy armoured vehicles. M113s are useful for contemporary battlefield - they work in Ukraine because Russia is similarly under-equipped, with old and unergonomic BMPs and BTRs. But in hilly terrains M113s will not provide necessary protection. IDF ground forces will therefore be over-reliant on its tanks and will inevitably have to resort to building fortified areas to protect its infantry.

No air support means that with extremely limited supply of attack helicopters, limited artillery and insufficiently protected APCs any ground war would reduce IDF to a force that would be peer to Arab militias that would be able to generate numbers with greater ease.

This is what I wrote in my posts immediately after 7/10 - in relative terms IDF of 1967 and 1973 is not the IDF of 2023. It is much more an asymmetric conflict occupation force than a full spectrum peer conflict force. The only factor that balances the scales is the air force. Remove that and you don't need state level actors engaging in direct military intervention. All that is necessary is endless stream of people willing to fight like in Syria or Iraq and Israel will be overwhelmed within 6 to 12 months.

Israel would have to replace its air force within months and that's just not possible.
You still haven’t told me who this peer competitor is that Israel should be worried about? Last time I checked, Israel and Iran don’t share a land border.
Israel lacks the ability to conduct suppression because they only have 25 F-15E and 40 F-35A. F-16s are great for airstrikes within 500km radius but not for missions at 1000km or more. Furthermore for IDF to conduct those strikes they will likely need support of refuelers, only to fly in a straight line over Syria and Iraq, and they simply don't have enough of them - 7 B707 and 7 KC-130.

Just in terms of geographical space Iran has many more sites capable of hiding and launching missiles than Israel has sites capable of providing security for assets and necessary servicing for the air force to continue fighting.
Obviously, the US will provide logistical and ISR support. The US is already deeply involved and orchestrating the entire affair while maintaining plausible deniability.
Look up my Desert Storm thread - all the information necessary to understand a modern air campaign in hard numbers is there. Israel has a force capable of attacking select strategic targets in Iran but not to conduct a suppression campaign.

And that's considering that it would have all the information necessary - Iran is preparing for an American intervention, not an Israeli one. They are considering an operation lasting many days that includes strategic bombers and a massed cruise missile strike e.g. a launch from Ohio SSGN.



Where exactly? And even if that was feasible the likely outcome of such operation would be internment of aircraft and pilots. Remember that any IDF pilots is a potential suspect in a war crimes investigation by the ICC so the excuse to intern is extremely convenient as it is a neutral action.
Even if Israel should lose it’s stealth fighter fleet on the ground, the US will replace it, like they did before. LM built up a huge reserve of F-35s that the USAF is refusing to accept until they’ve been upgraded to TR-3.
In April the intercepts were likely assisted by USN DDGs in theater as well as other systems like the US THAAD battery. The second strike was not announced so only the assets in range were able to respond. THAAD is a terminal phase defense and Arrow 3 would be used only against targets with sufficient flight parameters.

Israel is definitely attempting to preserve the missiles because from what I read it seems that they never intended to fight a prolonged campaign requiring multiple days of exo-atmospheric intercepts.

It may be possible that Iran chose to attack in an unpredictable patterns of limited strikes to exhaust Israeli and allied ABM assets while retaining a somewhat muddy picture of what their intentions are - thus not triggering an all-out US military response.

A lot will depend on what Israel forces through as retaliatory measure. We're only one month away from the most important election in living memory, and arguably since 1940.

The most important factor is the actual number of Iranian missiles. If they have enough of them to neutralise Israeli air force and disrupt any land-based allied operation they may play aggressively because the US has only capabilities allowing it a single full-spectrum operation globally. They can sustain and even expand their operations in Europe because of allies but not elsewhere. So it's either Middle East or West Pacific. And if US gets involved in the Middle East, with all the consequences to global markets resulting from that conflict, then China can take a leisurely stroll to Taiwan and the US won't be able to do anything about it.
It’s not clear if Iran has enough of the new generation solid fuel missiles. The salvo they fired in April had horrible accuracy and are useless against military targets.

China will not attempt to make a move on Taiwan. They are not ready yet.
 

jiajia99

Junior Member
Registered Member
You still haven’t told me who this peer competitor is that Israel should be worried about? Last time I checked, Israel and Iran don’t share a land border.

Obviously, the US will provide logistical and ISR support. The US is already deeply involved and orchestrating the entire affair while maintaining plausible deniability.

Even if Israel should lose it’s stealth fighter fleet on the ground, the US will replace it, like they did before. LM built up a huge reserve of F-35s that the USAF is refusing to accept until they’ve been upgraded to TR-3.

It’s not clear if Iran has enough of the new generation solid fuel missiles. The salvo they fired in April had horrible accuracy and are useless against military targets.

China will not attempt to make a move on Taiwan. They are not ready yet.
If Israel loses its fleet of F-35, You can’t expect them to be replaced so quickly, those aircraft are expensive and take a long time to build and refit. If the USAF is refusing to accept them, then it simply means that it isn’t combat ready. If they were to lose its current supply of aircraft, it would be a massive blow to Israel that isn’t going to be able to recover from very fast
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
The question I have which airfields or air space they’ll use? The Gulf nations said they are neutral and won’t participate however when push comes to shove they’ll likely give in under US pressure to allow Israel to use their airspace to refuel their jets. From everything we are hearing Iran’s respond to Israeli aggression will a massive strike on Israel’s critical infrastructure not the Persian Gulf gas and oil infrastructure. They don’t want to collapse the global economy unless it devolves into a regional war involving the US. Rather speed up the collapse of Israel. What worries me is will Israel use the nuclear option if that happens. Israel isnt a rational a actir.
The other factor is does Israel anticipate some of their jets won’t make it back home? This isn’t like the bombing of Iraq in the 80s. Only way they could be somewhat successful is if the US is involved in someway. And I don’t think the US has the heart for a full scale regional war.
The Gulf Arabs' saying they are neutral is likely just a tactic to avoid Irani attacks on their soil. Unless these Arabs remove US forces from their countries, how exactly can anybody determine that they didn't aid US/Israel in attacking Iran? US bases are riddled all over these countries and American aircraft fly missions from there daily.

I mentioned once before, US itself could strike Iran directly and claim that Israel did it (which is probably what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon). Israel is their scapegoat.

And I don't think the world will respond much if Israel used nukes. How bad are nukes now compared to all the war crimes and abuses Israel has committed in the past one year? Not much world response for those crimes which compounded together are probably worse than nukes.

It wasn’t an argument. I was citing a source. You’ve yet to demonstrate what exactly is wrong there, other than making a lot of noise.
Your source is an American former DOS employee. That's the problem. American DOS is operated by Israeli-Americans and hardcore Zionists. This is the same department that contracts MOSSAD-linked organizations like MEMRI to provide translation services to the US government of speeches/data emanating from MENA. Irani officials make an announcement, and before it is blasted on CNN, the Department of State let's Israelis step in the middle for translation to English. What could go wrong?
 

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
And I don't think the world will respond much if Israel used nukes. How bad are nukes now compared to all the war crimes and abuses Israel has committed in the past one year? Not much world response for those crimes which compounded together are probably worse than nukes.
It's very dangerous for US, China and even Russia alike if lower tier powers suddenly are justified in randomly using nukes just when they're at disadvantage.

It will give small countries an unacceptable level of strength at the negotiating table. Imagine who will be next to acquire and then use nukes against their political enemies. Iran? Some African dictator? Everyone will be rushing to make nukes, and those who can't make nukes will make dirty bombs.

Hell, North Korea today has a more developed nuclear program than Israel, and they can take the peninsula in a week if they spammed nukes. They can nuke a supposedly more powerful nation like Japan, and there's precisely nothing Japan can do about it.

All this is going to break the monopoly of large scale violence that the big 3 currently have. Without nukes, no one can credibly invade without huge military, intelligence and supply chain assets. With nukes, even a weak country that can't take a Chechnya sized area like Israel can credibly threaten regional powers. Or NK destroy SK despite SK being more developed.

If US has any modicum of self preservation, it's keeping those Israeli nukes under lock and key, only for the eventuality of extreme indiscriminate state/ethnic group threatening violence against Tel Aviv. The same way China has mostly kept Pyongyang's warheads.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
If US has any modicum of self preservation, it's keeping those Israeli nukes under lock and key, only for the eventuality of extreme indiscriminate state/ethnic group threatening violence against Tel Aviv. The same way China has mostly kept Pyongyang's warheads.
The problem is that China, NK and Israel are all sovereign countries, USA is not.

 
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