Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't even know if the missiles were actually loaded. Based on blast damage it looked even smaller than HIMARS (90 kg).

A house less than 10 m away from a crater was intact while 500 kg from an Iskander can level an entire block.

You can't estimate blast damage with commercially-available resolution because you can't estimate depth of crater. A rocket with 1000km range travels at 10Ma so its kinetic energy at the moment of impact if very different from that of a slower SRBM or rocket artillery like GMLRS-ER. Blast energy propagates differently depending on where it is at the moment of impact and ground is an excellent shock absorber. Just 1m of depth can make tremendous difference for how the blast is formed and consequently what it can do to the intended target.

As for the satellite images - what you don't see at that scale are all the partitions - curtain walls, windows, etc - blown out (or in this case blown in ) by the explosion. The structure stands and since flat roof is always part of the structure in a concrete frame building it seems that the building is intact. That's because of how structural design in military and civilian buildings is done.

Military structures are built to completely different standards as well as with completely different priorities compared to civilian, especially residential, buildings. Residential buildings, even 10-storey high-rise like the ones destroyed in Ukraine, are the most fragile structural system designed only for static loads. The primary objective in civilian structure is cost reduction within given usability parameters which is defined in building regulations. In contrast the primary objective in military structure is achieving protection parameters which are also defined in a separate set of building regulations for military or other high-security objects. Military bases that are planned as areas of active combat i.e. airbases which are a nominal target, are designed in the highest class for protection for dynamic loads - overpressure from explosion - and in horizontal plane. It means that the entire logic of structural design is different from that in civilian buildings, including those in seismic areas.

This is why the strike on Pentagon on 9/11 created so much confusion. Pentagon is a military structure. WTC was a civilian one.

According to Arms Control Wonk, the first attack at Nevatim airbase had an estimated CEP of 1.2km. This one was clearly more successful.

The attack was a complete failure if we were to measure the physical effects alone. The only reason why it seems more "successful" is because more rockets of sufficient class were fired at the targets compared to April when it was a combined attack using drones, rocket artillery from Lebanon and rockets from Iran. Recent attack was rocket-only and was conducted on short notice without advance warning being given so IDF had to rely on their own and allied recon systems.

April attack was all about testing a psychological barrier and the consequences - what will happen when Iran attacks Israel directly. October attack was a practical test of own readiness, enemy defenses, and actual effectiveness. Iran has the necessary data to plan the next attack although it won't be as effective as most casual observers imagine.

In general long-range missile strikes are not as effective. Let's not forget that CEP indicates 50% probability, not 100%. CEP of 50m doesn't mean much if you don't have sufficient number of warheads because 50% of them will fall outside of the radius. For CEP 50m it means 90% lands within 100m and 100m against hardened military targets with blast deflection considered etc is not enough for conventional warhead. This is the real reason why nuclear warheads are still in use for strategic weapons but not tactical ones. Nuclear warheads are all about ensuring effects for low accuracy systems. Similarly MIRV was developed to improve effectiveness over single warheads - not to improve survivability. Tactical nukes were a costly solution early in the Cold War but as targeting technology improved they were discarded because the cost of nuclear use was unacceptably high when targets could be neutralised by conventional means. (Russia kept tactical nukes due to the relative weakness of their conventional forces post-1991). Civilian "experts" more often than not don't understand the field of their "expertise". But ask any military commander who had the task of planning a potential tactical strike and he will immediately tell you why nukes were used. They simply changed the game of numbers of how much and how long a target was out of consideration after a tactical nuke was deployed.

So the question we should be asking is "what is the point of conducting such an attack" if missiles with nominally (or "officially) small CEP of 50m or 20m still have such poor accuracy.

That's because a conventional ballistic strike against airfields is not intended to damage aircraft. It is means to damage the infrastructure necessary to allow them to land, refuel, rearm and retaliate. The best defense for aircraft is emergency takeoff but the time in the air is limited even with refueler support. The aircraft have to land and they do on civilian airfields or road airstrips. The aim is to survive the incoming OCA (offensive counter-air) waves i.e. airfield bombings. For Iran OCA means further ballistic strikes at those locations where military aircraft are likely to land.

Almost all about attacking airfields is about suppression and neutralisation and not destruction. Long range rocket attacks simply do not have the necessary potential. Even nuclear weapons can be insufficient to prevent a retaliatory strike.

During Desert Storm the first 21 days registered over 100 OCA sorties per day on average (1st day 373 sorties, 2nd day 241) and all that effort caused merely 50% loss for Iraqi Air Force *including destroyed on the ground, destroyed in the air, damaged on the ground and fled to Iran)


Consider that the first two days of DS meant over 600 sorties each carrying an absolute minimum of 500kg and likely 1000kg of ordnance. This is an equivalent of 600 or 1200 rockets against targets which were not in hardened shelters.

So why is Iran doing it? Certainly not to achieve results understood in physical terms because if you are capable of building a rocket with 1000km range you are capable of correctly analysing publicly available data on the effectiveness of air-to-ground operations in 1991.

In all likelihood the recent attack was a test of:
  • defensive systems - what would happen if nuclear warhead was to be delivered
  • Israeli Air Force resiliency - how much and for how long would Israel lose its primary conventional asset
Israel has extremely limited capability of enduring attritional ground warfare lasting over 3 months against a peer (or peer-like in terms of substitute effect) enemy. Isareli Air Force is the main reason why nobody is considering large scale warfare against Israel because it is extremely difficult to conduct large scale ground operations against a force with air supremacy. Israel has the strongest and most competent air force in all of Middle East - including Turkey.
Remove that factor and it's giant with clay feet. Iran won't need to do anything other than neutralising IsrAF and leaving Israel to fend for itself.

But as data from DS shows it is by no means an easy feat. Volume of attack is necessary. Ability to sustain the attacks is necessary. Iran would need several days of contiuing rocket attacks to ensure that Israeli Air Force is neutralised. All of that needed to be tested and by attacking on 1st October Iran attempted a trial run.

Political theatrics aside IDF understands it and whatever considerations or retaliatory action they plan will be based on the above.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
You can't estimate blast damage with commercially-available resolution because you can't estimate depth of crater. A rocket with 1000km range travels at 10Ma so its kinetic energy at the moment of impact if very different from that of a slower SRBM or rocket artillery like GMLRS-ER. Blast energy propagates differently depending on where it is at the moment of impact and ground is an excellent shock absorber. Just 1m of depth can make tremendous difference for how the blast is formed and consequently what it can do to the intended target.

As for the satellite images - what you don't see at that scale are all the partitions - curtain walls, windows, etc - blown out (or in this case blown in ) by the explosion. The structure stands and since flat roof is always part of the structure in a concrete frame building it seems that the building is intact. That's because of how structural design in military and civilian buildings is done.
Luckily I don't rely on satellite imaging because we have on site photos, see below.

there was a missile that landed 10 m from what appears to be a single family home with no blast tight partition between them, only a chain fence.

There was no damage to the single family home.

The structure next to the blast presumably had glass windows, which were indeed blown out. There was no damage to the distal walls, also around 10 m away.

1728083473309.png

Kalibr and Iskander hit images, in contrast, mostly show entire buildings being turned to rubble.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
You can't estimate blast damage with commercially-available resolution because you can't estimate depth of crater. A rocket with 1000km range travels at 10Ma so its kinetic energy at the moment of impact if very different from that of a slower SRBM or rocket artillery like GMLRS-ER. Blast energy propagates differently depending on where it is at the moment of impact and ground is an excellent shock absorber. Just 1m of depth can make tremendous difference for how the blast is formed and consequently what it can do to the intended target.

As for the satellite images - what you don't see at that scale are all the partitions - curtain walls, windows, etc - blown out (or in this case blown in ) by the explosion. The structure stands and since flat roof is always part of the structure in a concrete frame building it seems that the building is intact. That's because of how structural design in military and civilian buildings is done.

Military structures are built to completely different standards as well as with completely different priorities compared to civilian, especially residential, buildings. Residential buildings, even 10-storey high-rise like the ones destroyed in Ukraine, are the most fragile structural system designed only for static loads. The primary objective in civilian structure is cost reduction within given usability parameters which is defined in building regulations. In contrast the primary objective in military structure is achieving protection parameters which are also defined in a separate set of building regulations for military or other high-security objects. Military bases that are planned as areas of active combat i.e. airbases which are a nominal target, are designed in the highest class for protection for dynamic loads - overpressure from explosion - and in horizontal plane. It means that the entire logic of structural design is different from that in civilian buildings, including those in seismic areas.

This is why the strike on Pentagon on 9/11 created so much confusion. Pentagon is a military structure. WTC was a civilian one.



The attack was a complete failure if we were to measure the physical effects alone. The only reason why it seems more "successful" is because more rockets of sufficient class were fired at the targets compared to April when it was a combined attack using drones, rocket artillery from Lebanon and rockets from Iran. Recent attack was rocket-only and was conducted on short notice without advance warning being given so IDF had to rely on their own and allied recon systems.

April attack was all about testing a psychological barrier and the consequences - what will happen when Iran attacks Israel directly. October attack was a practical test of own readiness, enemy defenses, and actual effectiveness. Iran has the necessary data to plan the next attack although it won't be as effective as most casual observers imagine.

In general long-range missile strikes are not as effective. Let's not forget that CEP indicates 50% probability, not 100%. CEP of 50m doesn't mean much if you don't have sufficient number of warheads because 50% of them will fall outside of the radius. For CEP 50m it means 90% lands within 100m and 100m against hardened military targets with blast deflection considered etc is not enough for conventional warhead. This is the real reason why nuclear warheads are still in use for strategic weapons but not tactical ones. Nuclear warheads are all about ensuring effects for low accuracy systems. Similarly MIRV was developed to improve effectiveness over single warheads - not to improve survivability. Tactical nukes were a costly solution early in the Cold War but as targeting technology improved they were discarded because the cost of nuclear use was unacceptably high when targets could be neutralised by conventional means. (Russia kept tactical nukes due to the relative weakness of their conventional forces post-1991). Civilian "experts" more often than not don't understand the field of their "expertise". But ask any military commander who had the task of planning a potential tactical strike and he will immediately tell you why nukes were used. They simply changed the game of numbers of how much and how long a target was out of consideration after a tactical nuke was deployed.

So the question we should be asking is "what is the point of conducting such an attack" if missiles with nominally (or "officially) small CEP of 50m or 20m still have such poor accuracy.

That's because a conventional ballistic strike against airfields is not intended to damage aircraft. It is means to damage the infrastructure necessary to allow them to land, refuel, rearm and retaliate. The best defense for aircraft is emergency takeoff but the time in the air is limited even with refueler support. The aircraft have to land and they do on civilian airfields or road airstrips. The aim is to survive the incoming OCA (offensive counter-air) waves i.e. airfield bombings. For Iran OCA means further ballistic strikes at those locations where military aircraft are likely to land.

Almost all about attacking airfields is about suppression and neutralisation and not destruction. Long range rocket attacks simply do not have the necessary potential. Even nuclear weapons can be insufficient to prevent a retaliatory strike.

During Desert Storm the first 21 days registered over 100 OCA sorties per day on average (1st day 373 sorties, 2nd day 241) and all that effort caused merely 50% loss for Iraqi Air Force *including destroyed on the ground, destroyed in the air, damaged on the ground and fled to Iran)


Consider that the first two days of DS meant over 600 sorties each carrying an absolute minimum of 500kg and likely 1000kg of ordnance. This is an equivalent of 600 or 1200 rockets against targets which were not in hardened shelters.

So why is Iran doing it? Certainly not to achieve results understood in physical terms because if you are capable of building a rocket with 1000km range you are capable of correctly analysing publicly available data on the effectiveness of air-to-ground operations in 1991.

In all likelihood the recent attack was a test of:
  • defensive systems - what would happen if nuclear warhead was to be delivered
  • Israeli Air Force resiliency - how much and for how long would Israel lose its primary conventional asset
Israel has extremely limited capability of enduring attritional ground warfare lasting over 3 months against a peer (or peer-like in terms of substitute effect) enemy. Isareli Air Force is the main reason why nobody is considering large scale warfare against Israel because it is extremely difficult to conduct large scale ground operations against a force with air supremacy. Israel has the strongest and most competent air force in all of Middle East - including Turkey.
Remove that factor and it's giant with clay feet. Iran won't need to do anything other than neutralising IsrAF and leaving Israel to fend for itself.

But as data from DS shows it is by no means an easy feat. Volume of attack is necessary. Ability to sustain the attacks is necessary. Iran would need several days of contiuing rocket attacks to ensure that Israeli Air Force is neutralised. All of that needed to be tested and by attacking on 1st October Iran attempted a trial run.

Political theatrics aside IDF understands it and whatever considerations or retaliatory action they plan will be based on the above.
I appreciate you making this analysis.

A few questions:

1. Which peer power is going to engage Israel in ground warfare? The 2 that come to my mind are both throughly bought by the US and the third is in shambles after a decade of civil war.
2. How many missiles would Iran need to fire to neutralize the Israeli airforce? If it ever comes to that, Israel knows very well the sites at which Iran’s BMs are stored and sortied out of: they will become high priority targets.
3. Could we not assume that should its airfields come under suppressive fire, Israel would relocate its aircraft outside its borders ?

Another takeaway from the strike is that either Israel’s Arrow interceptors have been depleted or they are saving them for a future need. The attempted number of intercepts was clearly less than in April.
 
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E100

Junior Member
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TLDR: I have noticed that there is a fair bit of discussion on Irans missile accuracy during the attack. They used a wide variety of munitions to act as decoys for the more accurate stuff. But they may have overdone it, as many of the decoys and main missiles managed to impact the ground. If Iran wanted to destroy each of the shelters they could have used more of the advanced missiles but it would run the risk of turning this into a full blown war. The main objective of the attack was to establish deterrence.
 

Atomicfrog

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TLDR: I have noticed that there is a fair bit of discussion on Irans missile accuracy during the attack. They used a wide variety of munitions to act as decoys for the more accurate stuff. But they may have overdone it, as many of the decoys and main missiles managed to impact the ground. If Iran wanted to destroy each of the shelters they could have used more of the advanced missiles but it would run the risk of turning this into a full blown war. The main objective of the attack was to establish deterrence.
We don't know what are in their stockpiles so availability of their accurate missiles need to be taken in consideration. But they have tested Israel defenses against their arsenal bigtime.
 

_killuminati_

Senior Member
Registered Member
**

2. How many missiles would Iran need to fire to neutralize the Israeli airforce? If it ever comes to that, Israel knows very well the sites at which Iran’s BMs are stored and sortied out of: they will become high priority targets.
Ah yes, Israel knows everything about everyone. Trust me bro.

Another takeaway from the strike is that either Israel’s Arrow interceptors have been depleted or they are saving them for a future need. The attempted number of intercepts was clearly less than in April.
Or they simply suck. Lmao. That option didn't register your mind?

_________

Israel hates Palestine, the flag, the colors on the flag to the point that at one time even the colors of the flag were forbidden to be used in combination for any art work in the country (which included depictions of watermelons hence why pro-Palestine often carry symbols of watermelons). But now.. they will hate the flag even more:

Didn't learn the first time


Israeli claims 1400 IOF casualties in Lebanon, extremely low morale, soldiers refusing command orders, desertions



Israeli youth refuse conscription
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Luckily I don't rely on satellite imaging because we have on site photos, see below.

there was a missile that landed 10 m from what appears to be a single family home with no blast tight partition between them, only a chain fence.

There was no damage to the single family home.

The structure next to the blast presumably had glass windows, which were indeed blown out. There was no damage to the distal walls, also around 10 m away.

View attachment 136915

Kalibr and Iskander hit images, in contrast, mostly show entire buildings being turned to rubble.

That level of damage is probably done by submunitions or decoys, they won't put a 50kg warhead on a ballistic missile
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
The intended target was most likely the big hangar that houses reconnaissance aircraft, which it missed by over 100m. The impact crater next to the G550 hangars (one of which was hit) missed the intended hangar center by 50 meters.

The fact that warhead blast effect was relatively small tells me that they sacrificed payload for range.
Why not say the missile targeted Tel-Aviv and missed by 100km?
Missiles that can put a hole in the middle of a hanger do not miss by 50m, a missile that can miss by 50m has a CEP of 100m and has a 1 in 5000 chance of hitting a taxi-way dead center while targeting something 50 meters away, you're orders of magnitudes off.

Warhead size is a tactical choice, you can fire one large missile at a target or file multiple smaller missiles at the same target, in this case multiple smaller missiles are more effective against Israel's AD. The fact that they only fired one missile per target does not mean they can only fire 1 missile per target if the target is important.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
And what was the probability of the missile stage falling on a Palestinian pedestrian?

According to Arms Control Wonk, the first attack at Nevatim airbase had an estimated CEP of 1.2km. This one was clearly more successful.

@tokenanalyst Same airbase
Do you comprehend what 1.2 km CEP means? stop throwing random numbers.
Mathematically if you can hit something dead center your CEP is meter level, the chance of randomly hitting a target dead center with a CEP any larger than 10m is mathematically impossible.

The probability of missile stage falling on pedestrian is obviously much higher since you do not distinguish one pedestrian from another and there are millions of pedestrians. If it randomly fell on Bibi's head that's impossible, its the difference between firing rockets at a city and hitting any building vs firing rocket at a base and hitting a hanger dead center.

You clearly lack a feel for statistics, let it go.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Luckily I don't rely on satellite imaging because we have on site photos, see below.

there was a missile that landed 10 m from what appears to be a single family home with no blast tight partition between them, only a chain fence.

There was no damage to the single family home.

The structure next to the blast presumably had glass windows, which were indeed blown out. There was no damage to the distal walls, also around 10 m away.

View attachment 136915

Kalibr and Iskander hit images, in contrast, mostly show entire buildings being turned to rubble.

Obvious counter is that not every crater can be caused by incoming missiles. Just look at Ukraine and all the friend ground targets Ukrainian AD missiles have managed to intercept.
 
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