Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

RottenPanzer

RottenPanzer

Junior Member
Registered Member
Petrolicious88 said:
Everyone will do it if given the chance. You think we have evolved beyond that? It’s still about grabbing more land, resources, wealth.

If one country is so significantly weaker than another, the encounter of the two usually ends in disaster for the weaker party. Their peoples killed, their cultures erased (genocide happens in more than one form).
How much atrocities happen depends on the degree of power disparity between the two.

In the case of Native Americans vs. the Europeans, you had one group living in huts fighting with ax and arrows and the other with guns and cannons. And it’s not just the Europeans. Even before the 1800, all major countries had better technology than the Native Americans.
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The prerequisites of such conduct usually depends upon material factor and the status of the state itself.

For America case, it's usually due to the interest of the capital owner of the colonial power, for example in this specific occasion is the British Empire and after that the capital owner of the America itself. The whole "Manifest Destiny" shtick was a front for the expansion of the Capitalist class ownership over the productive forces of production that needed the necessary constant capital in order to fulfill their own class interest. Same could be said with Israel.

So, technological advancements has nothing to do with the constant state of oppression by a certain actors, but it is solely in the hands of the status of the state itself and the class interest they served, for this case is the bourgeois class. Meanwhile technological advancements are usually the side effects of such class expansion.
 
TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Unpopular opinion here, but I think Israel technically can pacify Palestinians without exceeding violence. Believe it or not, it is not in human nature to blow themselves up. Hypothetically if Israel could provide Israeli Muslim safety and economic stability, they would be like West Bank. They would be somewhat dissatisfied, but not enough to die for it. The problem is it is not politically feasible due to the ultra conservative Heredi Jews. They make a large voting bloc, and their population percentage keeps rising. They must be pacified along with radical Islamists. It is very strange how they are exempt from conscription, yet still allowed to vote.

I don't think monetary cost is an issue here. The problem is political cost. Economically this is just a compulsory adult education. Whether you can force adults in a democracy to attend school is the real problem. Once you allow that, what is there to stop conservative party to reeducate moderate liberals into conservatives? I think reeducation system is only feasible in one party state, no relation to economics.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
vincent said:
If Israel integrates the Palestinian people in Gaza into Israel and offer them a pathway to better lives, I’m sure vast majority of them will stop supporting Hamas and other extremists groups. Like TK3600 said, the Palestinians in the West Bank seem to be a lot more peaceful even though they are segregated.
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The root cause of all these decades of sufferings is because the likud/zionist faction are not too different than hamas.
Neither one wants a 2 state solution. That is an undeniable FACT.
As such this is an impossible impasse therefore it can only be solved by either of 2 solutions.
1. Total ethnic cleansing by one over the other. Either all Israel or all Palestine.
2. Complete dismantling of both Hamas and Political Zionism.
It is truly that simple. Anything short of that is meaningless and just prolonging the pain and sufferings to perpetuity.
Very few people here or frankly the world understands this which is why this issue remains unsolvable.
 
A

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Temstar said:
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1720468691706392633
Hamas released a video showing in more details how those hand placed anti-tank charges work, turns out they are actually magnetic anti-tank mines made out of RPG rounds. The flared magnetic end is the original front of the RPG round while the long tail is a hand grenade style delay fuse.
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So placing the shaped charge in a nice position to get maximum effet, a magnetic RKG-3 more or less. To be able to do that you clearly need a static target in a very short range ambush. Clearly a give your life kind of way of fighting.
 
K

KYli

Brigadier
Israel can't and won't offer one state solution due to the fact that Palestinian population would exceed Jews if such integration would have happened. The founding of Israel is Zionism which define that Israel has to be a Jewish state. That's why it is impractical for Israel to grant citizenship to Palestinians in West bank or Gaza Strip.

The two states solution is the only approach to resolve Israelis and Palestinians dilemma. However, Israel doesn't want to give up those settlements in West Bank and want to expand them further. Before Hamas' attacks, Israel thought that it has all the time it needs to slowly ethnic cleaning Palestinians from West bank as the international community wants to look the other way.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Boltzmann said:
It's not a matter of pride. While the Chinese method does not involve mass killing, it still demands a pretty extraordinary level of political repression and vast material resources.

First, Israel would need to construct several massive, highly robust internment/education facilities each capable of accommodating and reconfiguring the brains of potentially tens of thousands of prisoners. They would then need to physically conquer and permanently occupy Gaza, to make it possible for them to surveil, identify, track, and arrest anybody found to be supporting Hamas or expressing sympathy for the organization or its ideals, which would probably be at least half the population, and then send them to these facilities to be 're-educated'. On top of this, Israel would also need to commit the necessary economic resources to provide the prisoners job opportunities after their sentences of generally 1-2 years, to ensure that they would not relapse into extremism after release. They would also need to justify all of this in the eyes of the international community, which would not necessarily be easier than justifying what they are currently doing, and may be harder given the invasive nature of the repression employed.

Israel is a small country, it simply lacks enough people and the capability to produce enough mass of the relevant products to make an effort like this work. Pride has nothing to do with it.
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Not true.

China's solution to the terrorism problem in Xinjiang consists of two simultaneous approaches: de-radicalization, and infrastructure development. There's no "brain reconfiguration" or "political repression" involved.

Infrastructure development began way back in the 60's or 70's, and the de-radicalization program lasted a good 10 years or so. The de-radicalization program itself was based on the existence of a strong economy in Xinjiang, thus being able to provide stable jobs as an alternative to extremism.

kwaigonegin said:
The root cause of all these decades of sufferings is because the likud/zionist faction are not too different than hamas.
Neither one wants a 2 state solution. That is an undeniable FACT.
As such this is an impossible impasse therefore it can only be solved by either of 2 solutions.
1. Total ethnic cleansing by one over the other. Either all Israel or all Palestine.
2. Complete dismantling of both Hamas and Political Zionism.
It is truly that simple. Anything short of that is meaningless and just prolonging the pain and sufferings to perpetuity.
Very few people here or frankly the world understands this which is why this issue remains unsolvable.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's clear that Israel does not want a two state solution. However, the same cannot be said of Palestinians. Hamas as an organization exist as a response to Israeli repression. Had the Israelis not employed brutal arpatheid methods on the Palestinians, we would not be seeing this kind of extremism.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
solarz said:
Not true.

China's solution to the terrorism problem in Xinjiang consists of two simultaneous approaches: de-radicalization, and infrastructure development. There's no "brain reconfiguration" or "political repression" involved.

Infrastructure development began way back in the 60's or 70's, and the de-radicalization program lasted a good 10 years or so. The de-radicalization program itself was based on the existence of a strong economy in Xinjiang, thus being able to provide stable jobs as an alternative to extremism.



Yes, it's clear that Israel does not want a two state solution. However, the same cannot be said of Palestinians. Hamas as an organization exist as a response to Israeli repression. Had the Israelis not employed brutal arpatheid methods on the Palestinians, we would not be seeing this kind of extremism.
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No, that's oversimplification. First of, grouping 'Israel' with political zionism is akin to grouping hamas with Palestinians.

Hamas is as much an ideology as it is a militia, politico group. Zionism is relatively similar.

Perhaps you are right that Hamas, having it's root derived from the hyper conservative Muslim Brotherhood materialized and evolved from the decades of persecution and occupation however in it's current form it is NOT an entity that desires a 2 state solution. That is very clear from them.
They want to drive all Jews into the Red Sea just as hardliners in Likud want to drive all Palestinians from Gaza.
There are sizeable portion of Palestinians as there are sizeable portion of Jews who desire a 2 state solution and wants to live in peace HOWEVER those folks you cannot find in either the CURRENT version of Hamas or Likud.
 
E

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Chinese method only works because Han Chinese are the majority population in China by a large margin. If, instead, Han were a minority, and Uyghurs were the majority, the policy simply would not work. Historically, rule by an ethnic minority can only be sustained via 1) adaptation to the majority's culture & identity 2) persistent repression or 3) a combination of both. The Manchu rule of China is a great example of minority rule in a historical context, where they blended with the majority population, adopting aspects of Chinese language, culture, government forms, etc., and managed to successfully suppress Han restoration sentiments for hundreds of years. Yet, they were still overthrown in the end.

If Israelis wanted to create a one-state solution, they'd need to 1) present themselves as patrons of Islam and 2) live with the fact that Muslims may end up eventually taking over, any way. Current Israeli leaders cannot accept either of these conditions, and so they refuse to become a "ruling minority," choosing instead to do whatever it takes to remain the demographic majority while still securing the borders of the state. That inevitably results in zero sum conflict with the Palestinians.
 
LawLeadsToPeace

LawLeadsToPeace

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Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
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After rapid deliberation among the World Affairs moderators and having witnessed the absolute derailment of the thread, we decided to implement the following rules that can be found on the first post as well:

This thread will now be dedicated to ONLY news and debunking any fake news purely with credible evidence and logic, and it will be moderated strictly. Any violation will be met with an instant ban FROM REPLYING to the thread unless the violations meet the criteria of a forum-wide ban. If you have any questions or concerns or would like to discuss a recent decision by a mod, please directly message us. The rules will be in effect immediately.
 
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