Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Everyone will do it if given the chance. You think we have evolved beyond that? It’s still about grabbing more land, resources, wealth.

If one country is so significantly weaker than another, the encounter of the two usually ends in disaster for the weaker party. Their peoples killed, their cultures erased (genocide happens in more than one form).
How much atrocities happen depends on the degree of power disparity between the two.

In the case of Native Americans vs. the Europeans, you had one group living in huts fighting with ax and arrows and the other with guns and cannons. And it’s not just the Europeans. Even before the 1800, all major countries had better technology than the Native Americans.
Yes the disaster is usually subjugation and loss of independence. Everyone conquered and subjugated others.

Subjugation and loss of independence is a HUGE difference from genocide. Unimaginably huge. Here's the big one: if you surrender to a conqueror and agree to obey them, they stop killing. if you surrender to a genocider they don't stop killing until you are physically removed either by death or expulsion.
 

LaBucz

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Yes the disaster is usually subjugation and loss of independence. Everyone conquered and subjugated others.

Subjugation and loss of independence is a HUGE difference from genocide. Unimaginably huge. Here's the big one: if you surrender to a conqueror and agree to obey them, they stop killing. if you surrender to a genocider they don't stop killing until you are physically removed either by death or expulsion
Exactly, Israel should stop this ethnic cleansing and adapt the Chinese effective method in pacifying muslims but they probably to proud to copy the Chinese, as it implies they are better.
 
D

Deleted member 24525

Guest
Exactly, Israel should stop this ethnic cleansing and adapt the Chinese effective method in pacifying muslims but they probably to proud to copy the Chinese, as it implies they are better.
It's not a matter of pride. While the Chinese method does not involve mass killing, it still demands a pretty extraordinary level of political repression and vast material resources.

First, Israel would need to construct several massive, highly robust internment/education facilities each capable of accommodating and reconfiguring the brains of potentially tens of thousands of prisoners. They would then need to physically conquer and permanently occupy Gaza, to make it possible for them to surveil, identify, track, and arrest anybody found to be supporting Hamas or expressing sympathy for the organization or its ideals, which would probably be at least half the population, and then send them to these facilities to be 're-educated'. On top of this, Israel would also need to commit the necessary economic resources to provide the prisoners job opportunities after their sentences of generally 1-2 years, to ensure that they would not relapse into extremism after release. They would also need to justify all of this in the eyes of the international community, which would not necessarily be easier than justifying what they are currently doing, and may be harder given the invasive nature of the repression employed.

Israel is a small country, it simply lacks enough people and the capability to produce enough mass of the relevant products to make an effort like this work. Pride has nothing to do with it.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
It's not a matter of pride. While the Chinese method does not involve mass killing, it still demands a pretty extraordinary level of political repression and vast material resources.

First, Israel would need to construct several massive, highly robust internment/education facilities each capable of accommodating and reconfiguring the brains of potentially tens of thousands of prisoners. They would then need to physically conquer and permanently occupy Gaza, to make it possible for them to surveil, identify, track, and arrest anybody found to be supporting Hamas or expressing sympathy for the organization or its ideals, which would probably be at least half the population, and then send them to these facilities to be 're-educated'. On top of this, Israel would also need to commit the necessary economic resources to provide the prisoners job opportunities after their sentences of generally 1-2 years, to ensure that they would not relapse into extremism after release. They would also need to justify all of this in the eyes of the international community, which would not necessarily be easier than justifying what they are currently doing, and may be harder given the invasive nature of the repression employed.

Israel is a small country, it simply lacks enough people and the capability to produce enough mass of the relevant products to make an effort like this work. Pride has nothing to do with it.
You need to offer the entire population the path to economic prosperity, in another word, a One State solution.
 

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
It's not a matter of pride. While the Chinese method does not involve mass killing, it still demands a pretty extraordinary level of political repression and vast material resources.

First, Israel would need to construct several massive, highly robust internment/education facilities each capable of accommodating and reconfiguring the brains of potentially tens of thousands of prisoners. They would then need to physically conquer and permanently occupy Gaza, to make it possible for them to surveil, identify, track, and arrest anybody found to be supporting Hamas or expressing sympathy for the organization or its ideals, which would probably be at least half the population, and then send them to these facilities to be 're-educated'. On top of this, Israel would also need to commit the necessary economic resources to provide the prisoners job opportunities after their sentences of generally 1-2 years, to ensure that they would not relapse into extremism after release. They would also need to justify all of this in the eyes of the international community, which would not necessarily be easier than justifying what they are currently doing, and may be harder given the invasive nature of the repression employed.

Israel is a small country, it simply lacks enough people and the capability to produce enough mass of the relevant products to make an effort like this work. Pride has nothing to do with it.
What about west bank. West bank seems better integrated with Israel.
 
D

Deleted member 24525

Guest
You need to offer the entire population the path to economic prosperity, in another word, a One State solution.
That sounds nice to say on a forum, but it doesn't work IRL when the two principle ethnic groups of that 'one-state' want nothing more than to wipe each other from the face of the earth

What about west bank. West bank seems better integrated with Israel.
I mean I would prefer if Israel could just keep the damn orthodox population under control politically, that would probably be the best solution for everyone in the west bank, but insofar as that is not really feasible I wouldn't oppose the Chinese method there if it is tractable materially, but I don't know if it is.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
That sounds nice to say on a forum, but it doesn't work IRL when the two principle ethnic groups of that 'one-state' want nothing more than to wipe each other from the face of the earth
If Israel integrates the Palestinian people in Gaza into Israel and offer them a pathway to better lives, I’m sure vast majority of them will stop supporting Hamas and other extremists groups. Like TK3600 said, the Palestinians in the West Bank seem to be a lot more peaceful even though they are segregated.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes the disaster is usually subjugation and loss of independence. Everyone conquered and subjugated others.

Subjugation and loss of independence is a HUGE difference from genocide. Unimaginably huge. Here's the big one: if you surrender to a conqueror and agree to obey them, they stop killing. if you surrender to a genocider they don't stop killing until you are physically removed either by death or expulsion.
That's exactly the difference between the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. Ukrainians can give up and live normal lives as Russian citizens. They might prefer to have their own state, but even if the nation is subjugated, the individual is free. That's how most historical conflicts worked

Palestinians face the choice of fighting or being eradicated. They can't just become Jews because they don't accept outsiders. They can't become Israeli citizens even if they've lived for generations in the territory currently administered by Israel. Israel wants to eradicate the Palestinian issue
Identity as a nation and won't allow the individual a life in freedom and dignity. In that way, it's very similar to colonial era conflicts, in which there also was a group of people who thought they're racially superior so they have a right to enslave or eradicate another group of people
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Palestinians face the choice of fighting or being eradicated. They can't just become Jews because they don't accept outsiders. They can't become Israeli citizens even if they've lived for generations in the territory currently administered by Israel. Israel wants to eradicate the Palestinian issue
Identity as a nation and won't allow the individual a life in freedom and dignity. In that way, it's very similar to colonial era conflicts, in which there also was a group of people who thought they're racially superior so they have a right to enslave or eradicate another group of people
I hope you know 21% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.
 
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