Israel attacks Gaza Strip

coolieno99

Junior Member
The following article was taken from The Observer. It provides more detail of what happened in the ground fighting:

The day Israel realised that this was a real war

When a bloody ambush in a Lebanese village ripped apart a squad of Israeli troops last week, the full reality of the fighting reached homes in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem for the first time. But calls for a major offensive have reawakened painful memories of old defeats, and old losses, across the troubled border

Ian Black in Jerusalem, Inigo Gilmore in Nahariya and Mitchell Prothero in Beirut
Sunday July 30, 2006
The Observer

It was five in the morning and the lead Golani Brigade squad was moving carefully through the outskirts of Bint Jbeil when a burst of automatic fire rang out. Hizbollah fighters engaged the Israeli patrol at close range with machine-guns and rocket-propelled grenades, from alleys, windows and rooftops. Two men died in the first moments; six more were killed over the coming hours. It was, one survivor said later, an 'ambush from hell'.
Sergeant Evyatar Dahan, shot through the shoulder, managed to kick away a live grenade seconds before it exploded but watched as his company commander was killed. 'It was terrible: the shooting went on and on and there was screaming from all directions,' the young infantryman recalled afterwards. 'We were like sitting ducks,' said another soldier.
After the initial shock, reinforcements arrived and air strikes were called in from across the border - just two kilometres south - to pin down the Lebanese Shia guerrillas. But it was seven hours before the wounded could be evacuated by helicopter, and only then under heavy fire. Hizbollah said its men could hear the Israelis screaming.
The men of C Company fortified a house and guarded their dead, to ensure they were not snatched as part of a macabre strategy of trading prisoners, alive, dead or dismembered. They eventually dragged eight corpses down a steep hillside under cover of darkness. 'We did everything we could to stop them getting to the bodies,' Sergeant Ohad Shalom told reporters, 'because we knew that, for them, that's the big prize. '
Two weeks into the fighting between Israel and Hizbollah, Wednesday's battle - 'the longest day', one newspaper called it - may have marked a bloody turning point. Indeed last night Israel announced it was pulling its ground troops out of Bint Jbeil, saying it had accomplished its objectives there and dealt a heavy blow to the militant group, but admitting it had paid a heavy price with the lives of Israeli soldiers. Heavy indeed, as it was a withdrawal, not a victory. Hizbollah fighters still hold Bint Jbeil.
The strangest war in Israel's history began almost by accident. In the safety of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, out of range of the rockets, it has had an air of bizarre unreality. Now it has become desperately real - a grim swirl of military funerals and interviews with grieving families.
Before Wednesday, Hizbollah rockets had killed 19 civilians, and 24 servicemen had died in earlier fighting, including the eight killed on 12 July, when two soldiers were also abducted in a signature Hizbollah operation. But the ordeal of Golani Battalion 51 has the makings of a myth - like the notoriously costly attack on Syrian positions on the Golan Heights in the 1967 war. Heroic it may have been, but it was painful too: 'like sticking a finger into boiling soup,' one commander complained. And it looks like triggering a more unpredictable war.
Even before Wednesday there was unease in Israel about the conduct of the fighting. Military experts called for larger ground forces, for more and bigger bombing raids on Hizbollah's rocket launchers, especially around Tyre, and for razing villages or hitting strategic targets further north.
But Ehud Olmert, like other Israeli politicians and generals, remembers only too well what happened in 1982, the last time young conscripts died for Bint Jbeil and scores of other Lebanese towns and villages. Twenty-four years on, the ghosts of Ariel Sharon's disastrous 'Peace for Galilee' operation have never been laid. Thus calls for a wider ground offensive were resisted at Thursday's cabinet meeting, where there were angry exchanges between ministers and generals. Still, orders for a large stand-by mobilisation of reserves suggests it will come - and probably sooner rather than later. The army is only using a tiny proportion of its strength, chief of staff Major General Dan Halutz, told the paper Yedioth Ahronoth on Friday.
Caution is certainly called for. Hizbollah spent the six years after Israel's withdrawal in 2000 building bunkers and tunnels and stockpiling rockets supplied from Iran and Syria - itself raising troubling questions about Israel's much-vaunted intelligence services as well as the judgment of the country's political leaders. 'Even if we did know what was going on, the withdrawal from Lebanon was more important that the Hizbollah build-up,' said one Israeli diplomat.
Halutz and other senior officers rebuff suggestions that the Israel Defence Forces have gone soft, lost their fighting edge or falling asleep on the job. 'There is nothing we didn't know,' the chief of staff insisted. 'It's not fair and its not right to attack our intelligence. We knew a lot.'
Hizbollah is said to have mined approach roads from Israel, honing techniques tried with devastating effect on American forces in Iraq. Their fighters, local men, have the advantage of familiarity with difficult terrain. Three regional commands have operational autonomy from Beirut. The IDF has a healthy respect for their weapons - including laser-guided anti-tank missiles capable of penetrating the armour of Israel's Merkava tank.
General Udi Adam, head of Israel's northern command, made a revealing slip of the tongue when he referred in a briefing to Hizbollah 'soldiers', quickly correcting himself to say 'fighters' instead. Israelis who sneer at rag-tag Palestinian 'terrorists' armed with little more than Kalashnikovs compare the Lebanese group to Iranian special forces that have studied their enemy's tactics and battle doctrine. 'This isn't like the war we fight in the territories [the West Bank and Gaza],' said another senior officer. 'This is a real war.'
So a large-scale invasion could play to Hizbollah's advantages. 'They don't want to take on Israel's military might head-on near the border, but to draw them in, extend their supply lines and then start hitting them,' suggested Timur Goksel, a Turk who served with UN peacekeepers in Lebanon for 20 years and watched Hizbollah win its spurs as the 'Islamic resistance' against Israeli occupation.
Israel claims to have killed 200 Hizbollah fighters so far, including several senior commanders. But the group is keeping quiet, aware of the power of misinformation and psychological warfare in a conflict like this. Its operational secrecy is formidable - vital to prevent the penetration by Israeli agents that has proved so fatal to Palestinian groups. 'After almost 20 years covering them, I have exactly one source in the Hizbollah military wing,' complained a Lebanese Shia journalist, 'and he tells me nothing.' Fighters have to meet stringent social, religious and aptitudinal requirements. Recruits often come from the same family or tribe to ensure loyalty.
Still, Israel is clearly far from being completely 'blind'. It reportedly intercepted a message from Hassan Nasrallah, the Hizbollah leader, admitting he was taken aback by the scale of Israel's response. It knows enough to be able to bomb trucks bringing in supplies from Syria and Iran - but worries about exposing intelligence by trumpeting its successes. Some surprisingly detailed information about Hizbollah capabilities has certainly reached Israeli military correspondents. The most alarming concerns the Iranian Zelzal rocket, with a range of 150 to 210 km, capable of reaching Tel Aviv; Nasrallah's ominous threat to hit targets south of Haifa was assumed to be a reference to that.
The Israeli military clearly has its own agenda. But one independent expert believes Hizbollah is in trouble, though still capable of doing serious damage. 'To fire missiles at Israel you don't need a well-oiled chain of command,' said Professor Eyal Zisser of Tel Aviv University. 'One of the advantages of a guerrilla organisation is it doesn't need a complex system of command and control.'
Shocked by its losses, Israel is displaying a new determination to see this through, though nobody can say exactly what that means. 'What's our endgame?' said one senior government official. 'We're working on it now.' But before the end there looks like being a lot more bloodshed - cheered on by the public and media. 'Before any international agreement, Israel must sound the last chord, launching a massive air and ground offensive that will end this mortifying war, not with a whimper but with a thunderous roar,' urged the influential Haaretz columnist Yoel Marcus.
And the soldiers are showing no sign of weakness, boasting that Hizbollah's fighters may be the toast of the Arab world but can still be beaten. 'For us it's like rain,' said Colonel Ofek Bukhris after the men of Battalion 51 were buried. 'We got wet, but they got wetter. We were really smashed up. But they were smashed up worse. It wasn't a failure and it wasn't a black day. It was a fight between us and them. That's war.'

Source: observer.guardian.co.uk
 

coolieno99

Junior Member
Here's another perspective of the ground war from AP:

Israel Pulls Out of Hezbollah Stronghold
By LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writer

Saturday, July 29, 2006
(07-29) 22:42 PDT BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) --

Israeli troops pulled back from a Lebanese border town Saturday after a week of heavy fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas who hailed the retreat as a victory. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice returned to the Middle East to push a refined U.S. peace plan. The Israeli pullback from the town of Bint Jbail appeared to be in preparation for a new incursion along a different part of the border zone. Hours later, troops and tanks massed farther to the east on the Israeli side of the frontier, Lebanese security officials said early Sunday. Lebanese civilians were suffering the most from the fighting, which erupted after Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid July 12. On Saturday, warplanes struck outside the market town of Nabatiyeh, crushing a house and killing a woman, her five children, and a man in a nearby house, Lebanese security officials said. In the southern port city of Tyre, volunteers buried 31 victims of the bombardment in a mass grave, among them a 1-day-old girl. Israel made its closest strike to Hezbollah ally Syria yet. Warplanes hit the Lebanese side of a Syrian-Lebanese border crossing, forcing the closure of the main transit point for refugees fleeing and humanitarian aid entering Lebanon. Two more missiles hit the area early Sunday. Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah marked Rice's arrival with a threat to fire rockets even deeper into Israel. Appearing on Hezbollah television, Nasrallah claimed victory, saying Israel had failed to make a "single military achievement" during its 18-day offensive.
Still, Rice said she was encouraged by a tentative Hezbollah commitment to allow international troops into southern Lebanon and eventually disarm. She met with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Jerusalem Saturday evening, and was expected to stop in Lebanon though no visit was announced.
She said compromises will be needed from everyone.
"These are really hard and emotional decisions for both sides, under extreme pressure in a difficult set of circumstances," Rice said. "And so I expect the discussions to be difficult but there will have to be give-and-take."
Israel Radio reported Rice plans to travel to the United Nations on Tuesday and hopes the Security Council can prepare a resolution calling for a cease-fire on Wednesday. The report said Israel would not agree to stand down until Hezbollah was incapable of resuming rocket fire Israel. France circulated a draft Security Council resolution on Saturday among the other 14 council members. It would call for an immediate halt to fighting between Israel and Hezbollah and seek a wide new buffer zone in south Lebanon monitored by international forces and the Lebanese army. The question of Hezbollah's sincerity toward negotiations is crucial to Rice's second attempt to broker a cease-fire. The United States and Israel insist any deal must ensure Hezbollah guerrillas are pushed back from Israel's northern border before fighting can stop. Nasrallah said he would cooperate with the Lebanese government in negotiations toward ending the crisis. But he was vague about how far he would go, and suggested that disarmament would be off the table if conditions outlined by Lebanon are not met — including the resolution of a border dispute with Israel. The bearded Shiite Muslim cleric, wearing his trademark black turban, gave his latest televised address a day after Hezbollah fired its deepest strike in to Israel yet, hitting outside the town of Afula.
"No matter how long the war lasts, whatever sacrifices it takes, we are ready. We will not be broken or defeated," he said.
"Many cities in the center (of Israel) will be targeted ... if the savage aggression continues on our country, people and villages."
Despite its intense bombardment of Lebanon — and heavy ground fighting near the border — Israel has been unable to stop barrages of hundreds of Hezbollah rockets. Guerrillas fired at least 90 rockets into Israel Saturday, lightly injuring five people. Israel has said it will launch a series of limited ground incursions into Lebanon to push back guerrillas, rather than carrying out a full-fledged invasion. The pullback from Bint Jbail suggested that thrust, launched a week ago, had ended. Lebanese officials reported a massing of troops and tanks near the Israeli town of Metulla further to the northeast, on the tip of the Galilee Panhandle near the Golan Heights, indicating another incursion could begin soon. Like Bint Jbail, the Lebanese town of Khiam just across the border from Metulla is one of the largest in the border zone. Khiam has been under intense bombardment in recent days — including a strike that hit a U.N. post nearby and killed four observers on Tuesday. An Israeli strike near the border Saturday hit near a U.N. peacekeepers' station, wounding two. The world body had just relocated unarmed U.N. observers to the peacekeepers' posts for safety after the four deaths. Israel's pullback of its forces from Bint Jbail ended the bloodiest siege in what has so far been only a limited ground incursion into southern Lebanon. The weeklong battle around the town underscored Israel's difficulty in pushing back guerrillas who have been preparing for years for this fight, building up arsenals and digging in with tunnels and shelters in caves. Bombardment by Israeli forces and rocket fire from guerrillas was intense Saturday morning around the Hezbollah stronghold, Lebanese security officials said. Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's northern command, said Israel never intended to occupy Bint Jbail or to get "stuck in one place." He insisted the real mission — "to destroy infrastructure and kill terrorists" — had been a success.
Regardless, the pullback gave Hezbollah the opportunity to claim its fighters had driven out Israel's war machine. Nasrallah said his guerrillas had dealt Israel a "serious defeat" in the town. "This elite force was fleeing and scurrying like mice from the battleground," he said.
Even Israeli officials said the battle was tougher than expected in Bint Jbail, a mainly Shiite town with deep symbolism for Hezbollah. Nicknamed "the capital of the resistance," the town showed vehement support for the guerrillas during the 1982-2000 Israeli occupation of the south.
Eighteen soldiers were killed in the town — nine of them in Hezbollah ambushes Wednesday, the military's worst one-day loss in the campaign. Adam said dozens of guerrillas were killed in the week of fighting. But Hezbollah acknowledges the deaths of only 35 fighters in the entire 18 days of warfare. Israeli troops still hold Maroun al-Ras, a nearby village, as well as the high ground above Bint Jbail, Adam said, adding that the air force would continue to pound Bint Jbail and ground forces could return at any time.
At least 458 Lebanese have been killed in the fighting, according to a Health Ministry count Friday based on the number of bodies in hospitals, plus Saturday's deaths. Some estimates range as high as 600 dead, with many bodies buried in rubble. Thirty-three Israeli soldiers have died, and Hezbollah rocket attacks on northern Israel have killed 19 civilians, the Israeli army said. The United States is under increasing pressure to quickly end the fighting, which in the last weeks has spiraled into an all-out Israeli attempt to end Hezbollah's domination of south Lebanon. The peace package Rice brings to the region addresses some of the demands made in the Lebanese government proposal that Hezbollah reluctantly supported.
The U.S. package calls for a U.N.-mandated multinational force that can help stabilize in the region, according to a U.S. official speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the discussions.
It also proposes: disarming Hezbollah and integrating the guerrilla force into the Lebanese army; Hezbollah's return of Israeli prisoners; a buffer zone in southern Lebanon to put Hezbollah rockets out of range of Israel; a commitment to resolve the status of a piece of land held by Israel and claimed by Lebanon; and the creation of an international reconstruction plan for Lebanon. The latter two provisions resembled parts of Beirut's proposal. But they fall short of the demands sought by Hezbollah, including a prisoner swap to free Lebanese held for years in Israeli prisons and the disputed land, known as Chebaa farms, put under U.N. supervision until its status can be resolved.
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Hi Men, I have been on vacation in south western colorado near mesa verde national park so I have been out of the net for a while ANYWAY...I saw on CNN last night a report on some of the weapons that were being used by Hamas. I can confirm 100% that I have seen TOW, Carl Gustaf AT-4, Milan, advanced manport FLIR and .50 sniper systems being used by the fighters. I think the level of equipment that is being used by the Hamas is none short of amazing.

IsraelNN.com) Hizbullah terrorists fired an anti-tank missile on IDF positions Sunday evening and wounded four soldiers, two of them suffering moderate injuries and two sustaining light wounds.

The attack occurred near the village of Al Tayyiba, near the Israeli border, when the tank was en route to rescue another soldier who was injured in a battle with Hizbullah terrorists. The soldier and three others also were injured moderately.
 
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crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
utelore said:
Hi Men, I have been on vacation in south western colorado near mesa verde national park so I have been out of the net for a while ANYWAY...I saw on CNN last night a report on some of the weapons that were being used by Hamas. I can confirm 100% that I have seen TOW, Carl Gustaf AT-4, Milan, advanced manport FLIR and .50 sniper systems being used by the fighters. I think the level of equipment that is being used by the Hamas is none short of amazing. Also there was just report stating that another Merkava had been mission killed with its crew injured by a anti tank missile......cheers ute.

Wait, HAMAS? Don't you mean Hezbullah? If Hamas is using this type of equipment, man they must have really upgraded their arsenal...
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
yes it is Hezbollah and not hamas. Although Hamas has deployed some suprising systems as well...cheers ute
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Yeah, Israel has siezed Anti-tank missles, although they did not specify what type. Hamas is well armed. But it's not like we didn't know that.

I don't see why the Israelis don't just assaualt Bint Jbail all out and take it. Why? Are they really that afraid of occupying Lebanese territory? Does Hezbollah have extremely strong defences that the IDF doesn't want to go up against? That's pretty unlikely, but it is a possibility I guess. What is Israel doing with the thousands of soldiers that it called up? It's just giving Hezbollah more time to fire rockets and prepare for guerilla resistance if Israel occupies Lebanese territory long-term. The IDF can use overwhelming firepower to blow Hezbollah out of the way and push up to Baalbek in the Bekaa Valley. WHY NOT?! It's only a matter of time before the international community finally gets off its @22 and brings an end to this war. Isreal is running out of time to do what it feels it needs to do.

Of course the Israelis would suffer losses, heavy losses in places. There would be images of jubilant Lebanese in Hezbollah yellow jumping on destroyed Merkavas on the TV. But they would do the necessary damage to Hezbollah. Once the northernmost objectives had been reached, the Israelis would withdraw.

I can't believe that Bint Jbail was such a hard nut to crack that the Israelis withdrew. Besiege it if you can't think of anything else to do! Fer God's sakes! Israel can't retreat in the face of Hezbollah! That's handing them the biggest victory they could hope for in the eyes of the world.
 

The_Zergling

Junior Member
That's something that has been puzzling me throughout this conflict... the strange strategy (or lack of) on Israel's part in this.

I think about Israel's last operation in Lebanon of 1982, originally promised to last for several weeks, ending up taking 18 years. From how I see it Israel's stance on the whole thing at the time was, "Don't worry about the Peace in Galilee Op. We understand our neighbors very well. We understand them better than anyone. We know all the dynamics of the situation in Lebanon."

I'm guessing that's more or less what Israel's message to the (US) government has been over the past few weeks. Now if this air campaign strategy worked and eliminated Hezbollah, fine. Unfortunately you just can't do that from the sky, ending up just empowering Hezbollah.

And that actually doesn't really make any sense to me. To cite a related example; GW Bush "miscalculating" the war in Iraq is understandable. He had no prior relevant experience to guide him, and he was too stupid or arrogant (or both) to listen to those who did. Similarly, the fact that the US military showed no interest (in the beginning of Iraq) in fighting the insurgency in Iraq is also understandable, because it's not the kind of war the US military is deisgned to fight. Now that doesn't excuse either case at all, but it's understandable.

But here, we have a very srange situation indeed. Ironic, to say the least. If there's any country in the entire world that ought to understand the nature of war against a guerilla organization, it would be Israel. Showing the enemy that they mean business is one thing, but unless they've gone crazy, they can't really believe that an air bombing campaign would do real damage to a group like Hezbollah with indigenous support. If they had the notion they could bomb Beirut 24/7, create free-fire zones in southern Lebanon and STILL retain the sympathy of the Lebanese citizens... they'd be either daydreaming or ignorant to what effect a major war would do to help Hezbollah's stance if it wasn't completed destroyed.

Unfortunately from what we've seen here, that seems to be the case. What the hell IS their strategy anyway?
 

utelore

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Well here's the thing Omert the Israeli prime min is a former trade unionist and not really a military man. I think he is being overly prudent and not letting loose the full might of one of the most powerful militaries on earth. I think however with the call up of some 30,000 reserves Israel is making planes to launch major ground operations if they want to. But that's just it the political leadership is running the show and not letting the military do its job. I don't think this kind of strategy is going to work....cheers ute.
 

coolieno99

Junior Member
Finn McCool said:
...I don't see why the Israelis don't just assaualt Bint Jbail all out and take it. Why? Are they really that afraid of occupying Lebanese territory? ...

Taking a page from the Vietnam War. If the Israelis occuppied Bint Jbail, then they will just become "sitting ducks" for the Hezbollah guerillas hiddened among the surrounding hills. The guerillas can attacked in the middle of the night(pretty sure they have night vision goggles courtesy of Russia/Iran) using mortars and .50 cal sniper rifles(again courtesy of Iran). And it will be very difficult to determined where the firings are coming from in the middle of the night, making air support and/or artillery support useless.
 
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