Israel attacks Gaza Strip

Gollevainen · Jul 27, 2006

Someone said it already, lets try and keep this purely on military matters. It has been positively suprising to see how long this thread has survived and I'm actually quite proud of you guys:china: so lets not ruin this ok?

With what little information that we can gather, it seems to me that the Israeli strategy is inexcusably stupid. A good attack should flow like water, punching through, cutting off and encircling the enemy. The Israelis should be vertically enveloping the Hezbollah fighters, use armoured coulumns on "thunder runs" to get behind the main resistance than using artillery, attack choppers and jets to pound the remaining soldiers. It seems to me that they are just doing exactly what Hezbollah wants them to do and making frontal attacks from hilltop to hilltop and village to village. Also, the Israeli strategy of taking ground then giving it up is foolish. Like the Israeli soldier in one of those articles said, this is real war. And in real war you don't retreat from ground taken (unless you have to ) At least the Israelis could just flatten Bint Jbail with artillery. They aren't even doing that.

Well the thing is that agaisnt those who fight under the area-defence doctrine (gurellian warfare) you just cannot march right in so to say. Becouse that what hezbollah really wants, Israelias proudly marching to Beirut...remember what happened in the first Chetchen war?? Unfortuanetly this type of warfare that Israel is currently waging is the only way it can and even that isen't very effective. In almoust any other case this massive killings of civilians and now this deliberate attack against UN should led to international arms-embargo (well that should have been issued as soon as the hostilities started) and huge pressure...but in this particular case we all know why it aint so...sadly tough but like I said earlier, UN starts to remind me more and more of the League of Nations and EU like the western world prior to the WWII when some country just does what it wants and none can stop it even when they are physically able to do so...

....upps

well dropped to my own pit...now you see how easy it is to get bit drifted from the topic....

Finn McCool · Jul 27, 2006

swimmerXC said:
EVENLY MATCH?
Go search up Israels military equipment, if they wanted to they could easily pound the Gaza Strip to kingdom come...
They haven't even started using their Navy yet their air sorties haven't even come close to it's full capacity...
All they been doing these days is firing artillery and rolling a couple of tanks in.

Calm down. I never said that Hezbollah and Israel are evenly matched in military power. I just said that they were more evenly matched than say the Iraqi Army vs. the US Army and the IDF vs. Hamas, or the US vs. the Taliban. You are also not taking into account variables like command, local support, etc. Hezbollah actually knows how to handle itself, unlike the Palestinians and the Iraqi Army. And if you really read my post I was actually saying that the Israelis had a massive advantage. I was making the point that due to the fact the Hezbollah was much more capable than all of the previously mentioned Muslim forces, they were suffering more casualties than the IDF or US Army had suffered in the above wars; that caused the media to make an unjustifiably big deal about the fact that the Israelis lost 9 soldiers in one day and suffered many more wounded.

Of course, it would probably be quite foolish for the Israelis to advance on Beiruit. I was more suggesting that the Israelis occupy and effectively control the ground they have taken, and possibly most of the land in sounthern Lebanon. It seems to me that the IDF is going on a massive search and destroy mission, similar to what the US did in Vietnam. That won't work. I would suggest at least driving Hezbollah underground in southern Lebanon by controling the territory, advancing to and taking the city of Baalbek in the Bekaa Valley, setting up a security zone in Southern Lebanon, close to the border, and possbily putting fire bases in Lebanese territory close to the border but farther north than the security zone(to be reupplied by road if possible or helicopter). That would make rocket launching much more difficult. and, after offensive operations have been concluded, withdrawing from all of Lebanon except fo the fire bases and the security zone.

maglomanic · Jul 27, 2006

China is not willing to forget it's innocent UN observer no matter what:china:

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"
At the United Nations in New York, China warned the United States that its opposition to a statement condemning an Israeli attack on a U.N. post in Lebanon that killed four observers could jeopardize U.N. negotiations on Iran's nuclear ambitions.

"This is a serious matter," China's U.N. ambassador, Wang Guangya, told reporters after a private meeting with U.S. negotiators. "It is an attack on the U.N. peacekeepers."

"

isthvan · Jul 27, 2006

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Tuesday, Jul. 25, 2006
Behind Israel's New Battle Plan
The siege of Bint Jebel shows how Israel has learned that, despite its overwhelming technological superiority, it has to fight Hizballah on its own terms — in prolonged and messy ground battles
By TIM MCGIRK/JERUSALEM

In Hebrew, the word 'Merkava' means chariot, and the Israeli tank known as Merkava 4, is a mighty, steel-plated chariot of war. But in the stony hills of southern Lebanon, in battles where stealth is more valued than firepower, the chariot is reduced to being an ambulance, ferrying wounded commandos back across the border. And even then, the tank is proving to be less than invincible.

On Monday, two tanks were dispatched to pick up Israeli soldiers wounded in the siege of Bint Jebeil, a town used by Hizballah Islamic militants to spray the northern corners of Israel with rocket fire. The town also has symbolic value to Hizballah; it was here in 2000 that Hizballah chief Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah proclaimed victory after Israeli troops withdrew from Lebanon. The sheikh' s jeering remarks had riled the Israeli generals, so they didn't need any extra motivation this week when Bint Jebel, its tunnels and caves stocked with rockets and over 100 Hizballah fighters, turned into a major target of the theirs.

As the two tanks came rumbling back with their wounded cargo, they came under fire. A missile blasted one of the Merkav 4s, killing a soldier and injuring a battalion commander. The second ran over a large explosive device planted by Hizballah that is identical to those used to such devastating effect against U.S. armored forces in Iraq. The force of the blast flipped over the 65 ton tank, killing the vehicle's commander and injuring three other crew. Earlier in the 12-day ground offensive, the Israelis had lost another tank to a hidden mine, killing four men.

Israel may have a technological superiority over Hizballah, but in the hide-and-seek dynamic of a guerrilla war, tanks and air strikes aren' t always enough. Some Israeli military officers are worried that the war is being waged the way the guerrillas want, dragging the Israeli Defense Forces into prolonged and messy battles on alien turf. Early on, the Israeli plan was to launch swift punches on the militants' rocket-launching positions and then to withdraw. But Hizballah began to play the game by their rules, drawing the Israeli troops into lengthy ambushes in places where their vaunted 21st century war machine was of little or no use. Not only were the guerrillas masters of the terrain, but they were equipped with top-of-the line anti-tank missiles. The first hard lesson was dealt to the Israelis in a hilltop village known as Maroun al Ras, just 500 meters from the Israeli border. What was intended as a lightning blow by the Israelis turned into a three-day slugfest.

Early on, the Israelis were reluctant to send lots of troops into the fray; Prime Minister Ehud Olmert wanted to keep down casualties and reassure the international community that Israel had no intention of grabbing real estate in Lebanon. And, according to military sources, the Israelis also lacked on-the ground intelligence, so they under-estimated Hizballah' s strength and its determination to punch it out. Despite the Israeli offensive, Hizballah still managed to sling over 2,000 rockets onto Israel.

But after the toll rose to 23 dead and 80 wounded, the IDF had learned their lesson. When it came to a ground offensive, big was better. No longer would they rely on small bands of commandos to flush Hizballah out of their trenches and underground hideouts. By Tuesday, the third day of the offensive, over 5,000 troops were called in to lay siege to Bint Jebel, most of whose 30,000 Shi'ite inhabitants had long since fled. Facing that kind of full-scale onslaught, Hizballah's fighters have no choice but to flee by night or fight it out. "There is still fighting going on," an army spokesman told journalists on Tuesday. "I can't say we are in total control of the village yet."

With its large army and its overwhelming firepower, Israel will eventually pry the Hizballah militants off the Lebanese border. The problem is it could take weeks, or longer. In recent days, a note of caution has crept into the soundbites of various Israeli military officers. Gone are the boasts that Hizballah will be hammered into oblivion. Instead, they're urging diplomacy and calling for the presence of a robust international peace-keeping force along the border to halt Hizballah's rocketmen. Meanwhile, as casualties rise, many of Israel' s formidable chariots of war are being pressed into ambulance service.

Well it looks like Israelis decided to drop small special unit missions and go in Russian stile…

Deleted member 675 · Jul 27, 2006

Well that's all very well and good. But given China's stubborness over Sudan and North Korea, putting its interests ahead of other countries', it's even more unlikely the US is going to condemn Israel.

Though I suppose some sort of criticism might be agreed upon eventually, it will be nothing more than a criticism. Certainly there won't be a call for a ceasefire yet. The US wants that extended peacekeeping force first.

maglomanic · Jul 27, 2006

FuManChu said:
Well that's all very well and good. But given China's stubborness over Sudan and North Korea, putting its interests ahead of other countries', it's even more unlikely the US is going to condemn Israel.

Though I suppose some sort of criticism might be agreed upon eventually, it will be nothing more than a criticism. Certainly there won't be a call for a ceasefire yet. The US wants that extended peacekeeping force first.

China is yet to make blatant threats regarding turning back time in a sovriegn nation by 20 years. Every nation makes decision based on it's interests. Neither North Korea nor sudan are bombing Red cross, UN and civillian infrastructure like Israelis are. Nor are Chinese blatantaly providing them with huge shipments of PGMs.

Regrading ceasefire, i think they themselves would ask for it soon. From destroying Hezbollah and sending the whole country back 20 years, to 'dimishing' hizbollah to now a measily 2 miles security zone and asking for international peacekeepers (Asutralia is saying it won't, after Israeli bombing of UN observers. Their defense minister is saying it's like commiting suicide

).
If you ask me thats quite some shine off the battle proven Mighty IDF chrome. Not that they proved any more effective in past 20 years dealing with Hezbollah.

crazyinsane105 · Jul 27, 2006

isthvan said:
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Well it looks like Israelis decided to drop small special unit missions and go in Russian stile…

Well, they are calling in for nearly 30000-50000 more reservists. Plus going in Russian style never really worked well against the Chechens. Dropping a small unit in can really backfire as they will be outnumbered and outgunned (and when on Hezbullah's turf, that's even worse). The only way to root these Hezbullah guys out would be a long and hard campaign of sheer overpowerment in terms of numbers. Even then, the victory would be short lived...

isthvan · Jul 28, 2006

crazyinsane105 said:
Well, they are calling in for nearly 30000-50000 more reservists. Plus going in Russian style never really worked well against the Chechens. Dropping a small unit in can really backfire as they will be outnumbered and outgunned (and when on Hezbullah's turf, that's even worse). The only way to root these Hezbullah guys out would be a long and hard campaign of sheer overpowerment in terms of numbers. Even then, the victory would be short lived...

Well one thing is certain – current tactics aren’t working… And while Russians suffered humiliating defeat in first Chechen war they performed quite well in second (after they changed tactic and command structure). Israelis should also learn few things from US experience in Fallujah…
Fighting guerrilla on there one rules isn’t best way to win, best tactic is to lure them in open battle and then destroy them whit your superior firepower… You also must use your surveillance and intelligence assets to find and destroy there heavy equipment, logistics and key personnel.
If you manage to achieve this they will lose there most experienced fighters and most valuable weapons and then you have to deal only whit lightly armed and poorly trained opponents. And at that point you have achieved your goals…

coolieno99 · Jul 28, 2006

isthvan said:
...Well it looks like Israelis decided to drop small special unit missions and go in Russian stile…

It smells and looks like the Vietnam War. At one village, the Hezbollah guerillas actually let the Israelis walked in unopposed right down the main street. And then the Hezbollah guerillas opened fire from rooftops and windows killing 9 Israelis.

Obi Wan Russell · Jul 28, 2006

The problem with fighting exremists and extremism is that if you kill one terrorist, ten more crawl out from under a rock to take their place. Cannon fodder they may be, but the supply is almost never ending. You have to kill the idea, not the adherent in order to win.

Israel attacks Gaza Strip

Gollevainen

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Finn McCool

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maglomanic

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isthvan

Tailgunner

Deleted member 675

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maglomanic

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crazyinsane105

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isthvan

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coolieno99

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Obi Wan Russell

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