Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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Brumby

Major
What an ironic complaint coming from someone who defines "always" as " odds are favorable of one outcome against another." Using your definition, you can say "because 105 males are born for every 100 females, therefore, you will always have a boy."
You probably don't bet. Say for some strange reason, a dice roll odd numbers 80 % of the time as opposed to even numbers. I would always bet odd numbers because I know in the long haul I will be ahead.
Anyway, you may or may not have surmised by now, but the rest of your feelings are mutual from the other members and myself to you.

I am not here for the popularity contest if you haven't noticed by now.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You are murdering the English language. Words convey meaning when constructed correctly. You did not call Brat out as being off topic in your post #409. I am reproducing below the full post so that there is no wriggle room.

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Your first sentence says you are calling Brat out (in your opinion) for adding nothing to the topic. That is not the same as calling him out for being off topic. The meaning of "off topic" means precisely that and is different from non value adding comments. Are you adding another rule i.e."Meaning of words according to whatever Equation says it mean"?


Please refer to my reply above as to whom is having comprehension problem.


Systems are build upon concepts and they are meant to ensure outcomes are developed in a certain direction. When you build a system based on no checks, no accountabilities, no transparencies then you are likely to end up in a certain outcome rather than not. The outcome is an aggregate of 1.3 billion people interacting with a system and each individual will have a capacity to behave differently. How people behave is dependent on the system roadmap. Your position is trust the people in government to do the right thing who will not abuse the system for their own personal gains. Why do you think China is so corrupted? Where do you think corruption comes from? It is payment by people who wants to avoid being oppressed and abused by government officials acting with unchecked powers, no accountability and transparency to their actions.


You may know the street where you lived better than others but that is about how much of an authority you have on China based on that experience. It is fallacious because it is an argument of false authority. Your experience on China is 1 out of 1.3 billion and it would not even qualify as a statistical anomaly as representative experience let alone authority. How does your experience living in China accord you the authority to speak on Chinese laws? .


You are mischaracterising the topic of conversation. I am questioning your reasoning that having lived in China makes you an authority on China..


You ae making what I call an Utopian argument. You basically set up an utopian state as the standard and argue that it can't be reached and therefore it is not sound. The problem is you are resting an argument based on execution and not the design. Off course execution will always be messy because unscrupulous people will always be out to game the system to their advantage. Not having solid foundation of due process will even make it worst.


Michael Kovrig is a case that demonstrates precisely why China's legal system is so problematic and a source for corruption. There is no due process and no transparency in contrast to Meng's case. No transparency hides a lot of problems and why there are no information on MichaeI Kovrig's case. it is rule by law vs the western system of rule of law. It is a system where the government use the laws to control the people as opposed to protecting the people.



Your argument is basically the end justifies the means because it is for the common good until you are the one in the receiving end of the Chinese justice system. I am sure the mafia is much more efficient and effective in debt collection than a debt collecting agency but then I digress.. .


I murdered the English language? Says the person who defines "always" as "favorable odds" AKA 51%? Good one. Read in between the lines the last sentence:

"And he said absolutely nothing about your false freedoms, which, for some reason, you like to allude to in every conversation spanning from J-20 to trade war..."
Calling him out for mentioning "freedom" in "...every conversation spanning from J-20 to trade war..." is saying that he is off topic and always so. I thought you'd catch that if your level of English was better than rudimentary. Are you fluent?
Once again, your hypothetical odds are useless because there is far less political corruption in China than in the US. You can use odds to figure that a larger fighter will have a better chance at beating a smaller fighter but when you are already told that the larger fighter is Bob Sapp and the smaller fighter is Fedor Emelianenko, your odds go out the window. There is "so much" corruption in China because the people put into the positions of trust violated them and the government hunts these officials, stripping them and replacing them every day. There is much more corruption in the US because the entire system, designed to prevent corruption, was circumvented by powerful black-hearted people in high places (some not even in the US), which is why the entire white-house is the circus freak show it is today. The common people don't even have a place to pay a bribe to avoid the abuse and oppression; opportunities to bribe are for the rich and powerful in America. They are told straight to their faces that they have a "democratically elected" president who lost the majority vote, was ushered in by foreign interference, is perfectly accustomed to criminal activity, and they can do nothing about it. Now that's impressive corruption. And that will take it back to what I said in the first place: whatever the system is designed to do, still depends on the people doing them and that is how, despite having less legal mechanisms to prevent corruption in China, it is still much less corrupt than the US.

So this conversation is supposedly about the freedoms seen on the ground in comparison between the US and China. I'm not a Chinese lawyer and neither are you, so even if you have great knowledge about American law, you cannot compare it to something you are not familiar with. Living in China does not make me a legal expert on the Chinese process but it does qualify me to comment on the level of freedom experienced by people on the streets in Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing, Tianjin, Qingdao, Jinan, and possible some other places. They are very free compared to the US and the people there don't have a look of fear and helplessness whenever the police are summoned which is the norm in the US. In contrast, you have nothing to compare with; you know what the US is like and you have an imaginary picture of China based on Western readings. Basically, I've seen the person while you're painting a mental image of what he looks like based on what people (who hate him) tell you so if we're both supposed to pick him out of a crowd, I'd suggest you pipe down when I tell you that's not your man.

Not having a solid foundation will make things worse if all people are the same but if the Americans are just more corrupt than the Chinese, then it can easily overcome that design as demonstrated in real life.

You asked me what Michael Kovrig was charged with because that is how you would define fundamental transparency. I told you, and you are still harping about lack of transparency? I expected as much from someone of your caliber. Chinese law oppresses and confines the criminals and protects the law-abiding well-meaning citizens from their harm. That is the correct implementation of the law and that is how people like Kovrig should be treated. The Chinese can easily go through the motions, forge evidence if necessary, create documents, and even allude to nonsense laws like the Canadian ones to satisfy people like you and Kovrig will still be at the complete mercy of the court but why go through all that trouble pretending to give "due process" like the West? In the Chinese system, the efficiency is improved but the fairness is maintained.

I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. If I am in Chinese court, I am certain that after finding me innocent of wrongdoing, I will be released. No public trial needed. However, if I have actually done wrong and went through extraordinary means to destroy the crucial legally-condemning evidence hoping to be let off due to lack of evidence, I would worry. The Chinese won't let me off on a legal technicality. Of course, someone brain-washed by Western ideals may think that the Chinese are insane; they just lock up anyone for a perfect conviction record regardless of whether evidence suggests the person was a traitor or patriot. That quality of thinking wouldn't surprise me.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You probably don't bet. Say for some strange reason, a dice roll odd numbers 80 % of the time as opposed to even numbers. I would always bet odd numbers because I know in the long haul I will be ahead.


I am not here for the popularity contest if you haven't noticed by now.


Haha You are here to debate the meaning of "always"? Who do you think you are? Bill Clinton? You can bet however you like but to say that the dice "always" lands on odd because it does so 80% of the time, OR that you will "always" win because your odds are 80%, are both wrong and untrue to the correct definition, as was your initial characterization of the word "always" before your effort here to obfuscate it with fanciful imaginary situations. If you always bet one way although the odds are not 100%, then you could be wrong, and if you already are wrong by betting that China is more corrupt than the US, then it makes no difference what the starting odds were.

You don't have to be here for such a contest; you told us what you thought of us and I told you what we thought of you. Don't like what you started?
 
now noticed the tweet
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Huawei CFO
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has filed a lawsuit against the Canadian government, border agency, and police force, alleging serious constitutional rights violations when they detained, searched, and interrogated her before telling her she was under arrest, local media reported.

D0x_KepUwAAVhkK.jpg

Let me add something to the topic since your Brumby here is much more interested in bickering from the start when he interjected in midst of Brat's christian freedom troll. I had been wondering when this was going to happen. Good for her she can afford to take legal action against the Trump-induced succumb to corruption Canadian government. Many victims just cannot afford the money and time to do that.
 
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CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
I set the annoying guy to ignore and didn't want to set anyone else because a lot of you often contribute great articles and discussions, so please don't ruin it by continuing to reply to him lol. Maybe you guys should set him to ignore too. That way we can focus on more interesting and analytical discussion instead of all this semantic nonsense.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
Funny thing is the dude sounded like he's impressed with himself saying cliche 101's and thought he was the better and smarter guy than the others, mensplaining textbook cliches that don't work or exist in realities.

A pig with lipsticks on is still a pig. Don't know if it's the kind of pig I like though.
 

KIENCHIN

Junior Member
Registered Member
I set the annoying guy to ignore and didn't want to set anyone else because a lot of you often contribute great articles and discussions, so please don't ruin it by continuing to reply to him lol. Maybe you guys should set him to ignore too. That way we can focus on more interesting and analytical discussion instead of all this semantic nonsense.
I had set him to ignore when he made himself known as Sharpie because he could not log back in as Brumby.
 

Brumby

Major
On paper, Canada's law forbids extraditing prisoners for political reasons.
I don't know about the case of political prisoners. It is possible but it also depends on the meaning of "political" as defined in whatever statute or exemption granted through executive order. It is probably a means of protection where the party in question is possibly targeted for political crimes. I am sure Meng's defence counsel will explore every legal avenue that may be available to her. That is what the defence team is hired to do. I am simply not familiar enough to comment whether the angle you mentioned is a viable option. What I do know is that some western countries will not agree to any extradition if the targeted party will likely face indictment charges that may lead to capital punishment i.e. death penalty. I don't think Meng's case will meet this standard because she is likely to be charged for bank fraud which will not attract capital punishment..

You have it from Trump's own mouth that Meng's arrest is political in nature. There's plenty of articles on that.
What can I say about Trump. I guess at times he talks too much.

The SNC case also pertains to improper foreign relations, but as a Canadian company and due to it's connection with the state, it was spared from court.
The important thing about due process as we contrast between Meng and Kovrig is that Meng has access to the best defence counsel that money can buy. The procedural process will be played out in public hearings with full transparency of the legal arguments by all parties. She has already filed for damages.

I am just calling a spade a spade. If you can look over the terminology, what I'm saying is that you listing the procedure an order traveled does not make the order legit. Would listing Bin Laden's communication to the 9/11 attackers make the attack a lawful execution?
What is lawful or not is a question that is played out through due process where both defence and prosecutors are given the opportunity to present their arguments. There is transparency to the charges, court dates and the proceedings

Kovrig is being charged with espionage, abusing knowledge of state secrets. We are expected to hear more about his case when it hits court. The queue should be available on website, or at least a sample of it. If he isn't in the sample, you would have to phone or email them.

If you are that worried about him and convinced that he is innocent, the justice system allows you to sue the courts and the government if they commit a wrongful ruling. I am sure Kovrig would go for this option if the prosecution turns up with weak evidence. TBF Canada also allows this, and Meng is doing it right now. So it's not like Canada is entirely phony.

Prosecution is given 13.5 months max to hand over their case. Maximum detention is 37 days, extendable to a max of 13.5 months if the prosecution successfully argues that the chance of destroying evidence or escape is high enough to warrant detention. Compensation for wrongful detention is calculated by job salary, benefits, defaulting to a basic 83 RMB/day if there is no good material to base it on
In contrast we know the charges pertaining to Meng, the timelines involved with the proceedings, she has full access to her defence team and she is out on bail. With Kovrig we know nothing by comparison other than he is held for espionage The true test is if you were in their shoes, which system would you rather be facing.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
I can’t really talk with you if I tell you his charges and then you straight up deny it.

Regarding which system I’d rather be in, there’s a huge difference between being innocent in a phony system or highly suspect in a fair system. I’d choose the former, as you may be able to loophole around trumped up charges or bribe your way out.

If the crime is equal, there is no question I’d be in the fair system where law applies the same regardless of ethnicity. Although I can understand how a Canadian person may prefer a system where ethnic Europeans are favored?

The test regarding Canada’s rule of law will be whether the breach of constitutional law and the breach on political imprisonment will be respected. If they are observed, we can only call the incident a blemish on a system that is “trying it’s best” and not something malicious.
 

Brumby

Major
I can’t really talk with you if I tell you his charges and then you straight up deny it.
You did not quote me directly but I presume you are responding to my post. Please point me to the post I deny anything relating to his charges. Kovrig has not been formally changed to my knowledge. A person is formally charged when he appears in court with specific indictments, the nature and the specific laws he has broken. You haven't told me anything beyond what we already know from the news wire. What is there to deny because there isn't anything specific to deny? So far everything is held behind a veil of secrecy.
 
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