Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
the pre investigation is supposed to take max 13.5 months, there has been 3 months. What’s secret about that?

So now quickly slapping formal charges on them without finishing the investigation is fair?

Truly the American system is fantastic, it does not need time to investigate and what’s even better, it’s media already knows to point out the guilty even before they have reached court. That the guilty person happens to give leverage to the president can only be a blessing from God! The gesture to release an otherwise guilty person just shows the magnanimity of dear leader Trump.
 

Brumby

Major
the pre investigation is supposed to take max 13.5 months, there has been 3 months. What’s secret about that?

So now quickly slapping formal charges on them without finishing the investigation is fair?

Truly the American system is fantastic, it does not need time to investigate and what’s even better, it’s media already knows to point out the guilty even before they have reached court. That the guilty person happens to give leverage to the president can only be a blessing from God! The gesture to release an otherwise guilty person just shows the magnanimity of dear leader Trump.
Being locked up for 13.5 months without knowing what the charges are and you think is fair? So why the hysteria about Meng then?.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Being locked up for 13.5 months without knowing what the charges are and you think is fair? So why the hysteria about Meng then?.

the prosecution needs to convince the court that more time is needed AND that releasing the suspect would have a high chance of escape and/or evidence destruction for 13.5 months. Otherwise, they can only hold you for 37 days. The suspect is always told on arrest what he/she is suspect of.

If the charges are wrongful, full compensation will be paid.

this is how it works in every juridical system.

Obviously the logistics of making a kangaroo court to capture a political prisoner to use as a bargaining chip is far faster than building a case against a spy chief in a fair court.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You probably don't bet. Say for some strange reason, a dice roll odd numbers 80 % of the time as opposed to even numbers. I would always bet odd numbers because I know in the long haul I will be ahead.


I am not here for the popularity contest if you haven't noticed by now.

Once again, you are hung up on the details measuring Chinese law by the standards of US law. What does it matter if he's charged in a jail cell or in a court? How Kovrig's case proceeds is none of our business; we've no right to know. Kovrig knows why he's there; that's all that matters and all that he deserves.

And pretending to not understand a counter argument doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Transparency does not equal fairness, as I've already demonstrated numerous times. You need to digest that because simply regurgitating Western ideals like they are the bible gets you nowhere in regards to the Chinese.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Being locked up for 13.5 months without knowing what the charges are and you think is fair? So why the hysteria about Meng then?.

13.5 months is an example of a Chinese policy that gives extra leverage to law enforcement when needed in dealing with a very slippery criminal and a difficult case. A criminal hoping that the police cannot gather enough evidence against him in a week and therefore must let him go so he can escape to his own country would be thwarted by it. However, you'd be very foolish to think that this equates to a lack of freedom just because technically, random people can be arrested and held for 13.5 months for no reason because this doesn't happen to random people who have done nothing wrong. People put into this position have provided Chinese authorities ample reason to believe they have done something wrong; it's just a matter of putting the pieces together for the legal execution. It's all about the people in charge, their discretion, and the implementation that makes the difference between a very effective tool and a vessel for abuse, which is why when wielded correctly as it has been, the Chinese legal system provides fairness and efficiency together. Krovig was arrested for a reason (the jist of which was made public) and it's not because it's legal to select a random Canadian and lock him up for 13.5 months; that's for sure.

If Meng was arrested for endangering the national security of Canada, there would be no uproar. She was arrested in Canada for no offenses against Canada, but for actions that aren't even considered crimes internationally. She's basically being accused of lying to Americans and to be arrested for such indicates that somewhere in Canada's perverse legal system, they think that it is a criminal offense for a Chinese citizen to lie to American authorities when it should at most be a civil case with damage restitution being sought.
 

Brumby

Major
I murdered the English language? Says the person who defines "always" as "favorable odds" AKA 51%? Good one. Read in between the lines the last sentence:

"And he said absolutely nothing about your false freedoms, which, for some reason, you like to allude to in every conversation spanning from J-20 to trade war..."
Calling him out for mentioning "freedom" in "...every conversation spanning from J-20 to trade war..." is saying that he is off topic and always so. I thought you'd catch that if your level of English was better than rudimentary. Are you fluent?
Once again, your hypothetical odds are useless because there is far less political corruption in China than in the US. You can use odds to figure that a larger fighter will have a better chance at beating a smaller fighter but when you are already told that the larger fighter is Bob Sapp and the smaller fighter is Fedor Emelianenko, your odds go out the window. There is "so much" corruption in China because the people put into the positions of trust violated them and the government hunts these officials, stripping them and replacing them every day. There is much more corruption in the US because the entire system, designed to prevent corruption, was circumvented by powerful black-hearted people in high places (some not even in the US), which is why the entire white-house is the circus freak show it is today. The common people don't even have a place to pay a bribe to avoid the abuse and oppression; opportunities to bribe are for the rich and powerful in America. They are told straight to their faces that they have a "democratically elected" president who lost the majority vote, was ushered in by foreign interference, is perfectly accustomed to criminal activity, and they can do nothing about it. Now that's impressive corruption. And that will take it back to what I said in the first place: whatever the system is designed to do, still depends on the people doing them and that is how, despite having less legal mechanisms to prevent corruption in China, it is still much less corrupt than the US.

So this conversation is supposedly about the freedoms seen on the ground in comparison between the US and China. I'm not a Chinese lawyer and neither are you, so even if you have great knowledge about American law, you cannot compare it to something you are not familiar with. Living in China does not make me a legal expert on the Chinese process but it does qualify me to comment on the level of freedom experienced by people on the streets in Beijing, Shanghai, Nanjing, Tianjin, Qingdao, Jinan, and possible some other places. They are very free compared to the US and the people there don't have a look of fear and helplessness whenever the police are summoned which is the norm in the US. In contrast, you have nothing to compare with; you know what the US is like and you have an imaginary picture of China based on Western readings. Basically, I've seen the person while you're painting a mental image of what he looks like based on what people (who hate him) tell you so if we're both supposed to pick him out of a crowd, I'd suggest you pipe down when I tell you that's not your man.

Not having a solid foundation will make things worse if all people are the same but if the Americans are just more corrupt than the Chinese, then it can easily overcome that design as demonstrated in real life.

You asked me what Michael Kovrig was charged with because that is how you would define fundamental transparency. I told you, and you are still harping about lack of transparency? I expected as much from someone of your caliber. Chinese law oppresses and confines the criminals and protects the law-abiding well-meaning citizens from their harm. That is the correct implementation of the law and that is how people like Kovrig should be treated. The Chinese can easily go through the motions, forge evidence if necessary, create documents, and even allude to nonsense laws like the Canadian ones to satisfy people like you and Kovrig will still be at the complete mercy of the court but why go through all that trouble pretending to give "due process" like the West? In the Chinese system, the efficiency is improved but the fairness is maintained.

I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. If I am in Chinese court, I am certain that after finding me innocent of wrongdoing, I will be released. No public trial needed. However, if I have actually done wrong and went through extraordinary means to destroy the crucial legally-condemning evidence hoping to be let off due to lack of evidence, I would worry. The Chinese won't let me off on a legal technicality. Of course, someone brain-washed by Western ideals may think that the Chinese are insane; they just lock up anyone for a perfect conviction record regardless of whether evidence suggests the person was a traitor or patriot. That quality of thinking wouldn't surprise me.


Since we have reached an impasse over the meaning of your post #409, I suggest we escalate this for moderation. If we can't even reach a common understanding in meaning over a basic sentence in post #409, further engagement is meaningless. .
 
now noticed the tweet
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Brumby

Major
13.5 months is an example of a Chinese policy that gives extra leverage to law enforcement when needed in dealing with a very slippery criminal and a difficult case. A criminal hoping that the police cannot gather enough evidence against him in a week and therefore must let him go so he can escape to his own country would be thwarted by it. However, you'd be very foolish to think that this equates to a lack of freedom just because technically, random people can be arrested and held for 13.5 months for no reason because this doesn't happen to random people who have done nothing wrong. People put into this position have provided Chinese authorities ample reason to believe they have done something wrong; it's just a matter of putting the pieces together for the legal execution. It's all about the people in charge, their discretion, and the implementation that makes the difference between a very effective tool and a vessel for abuse, which is why when wielded correctly as it has been, the Chinese legal system provides fairness and efficiency together. Krovig was arrested for a reason (the jist of which was made public) and it's not because it's legal to select a random Canadian and lock him up for 13.5 months; that's for sure.

If Meng was arrested for endangering the national security of Canada, there would be no uproar. She was arrested in Canada for no offenses against Canada, but for actions that aren't even considered crimes internationally. She's basically being accused of lying to Americans and to be arrested for such indicates that somewhere in Canada's perverse legal system, they think that it is a criminal offense for a Chinese citizen to lie to American authorities when it should at most be a civil case with damage restitution being sought.

Sorry mate you can’t have it both ways.

Following Biscuits insistence that Michael Kovrig’s case is fair even though he has not been formally charged, given no access to legal counsel, no transparency, being held in indefinite detention I have reluctantly accepted that position. I have been accused of being unreasonable for not accepting such a position of fairness. I am now applying that same standard of fairness as you guys insist on using and I can therefore conclude beyond reasonable doubt that Meng’s case is entirely fair in comparison. She has received all due process, she has full legal representation, there is total visibility on the case, there are known timelines and she is out on bail. Therefore by the same standard you guys set and by the reasoning you guys used, anybody who complains Meng’s case is unfair is entirely unreasonable and in my opinion totally hypocritical.

Case closed. Discussions ended.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Do I have to remind you again about what I said in earlier posts?

It’s painfully obvious that you will not listen to reasoning.

The two cases are different in nature. Meng is being held as political prisoner as a bargaining chip for Trump, Kovrig is being held for spying, as an open statement to Trump that his conduct using intelligence service against civilians will result in retaliation to his intelligence officers, who are more laid bare than he thinks they are.

It will take some time to wrap up the case against Kovrig, the local court does not have authority to be judge jury and executioner like Trump and his media. If the case wraps up in a fraudulent way, then you can talk about fair or not. In fact, you should sue them if you are sure about fraudulent conduct. Or better yet, Kovrig himself will surely sue if the charges are wrongful.

If it turns out Kovrig was innocent all along, MSS will owe him a big recompense payment and apology, enough so he will not have to work for many years if not the rest of his life.

I shared the exact deadlines, legal systems and charges, if you still deny their existence, you are free to keep doing that. But it’s important so that other posters can make up their minds.
 
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