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Shams

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Pataliputra said:
To be classified as a 5th generation fighter jet, specific criteria must be met.
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Could you please be kind enough to educate us what are those criteria, so other countries who have mistaken can promptly follow india's lead?

Pataliputra said:
Notably, the Tejas, a 4th generation fighter, has a relatively low radar cross-section of 0.5 square meters.
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You are very generous. It is a known fact that in 40+ years number of Tejas we could detect matches the number of years it has been in development. It is clear to everyone that Tejas can not be seen unless it wants to be seen. So it can not have radar cross section at all. It is not an stealth fighter, but an invisible fighter which should be classified as 15.77+ generation.
 
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Pataliputra

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Gloire_bb said:
In the a2a domain, they rather obviously aren't.
Rafale is an interesting and unusual (asymmetric) a2a aircraft, but because of that it always struggled to be around the 'strongest' title even among peers. Now its peer era is long gone.
Overall, your claim may have merit, because Rafale is a fully developed, all-purpose aircraft with mature capabilities everywhere; literally, the single hole in its capabilities is the lack of ARM. But for specific applications, it isn't best...probably nowhere.
If measured as omnirole and when its lack of LO isn't decisive, Rafale is indeed probably the most capable aircraft on the market right now.
Yes, more capable than current F-35.


The substantial cost per Rafale mostly means that you're supporting small rate of fully domestic production of a developed economy(with per capita GDP 20 times yours) out of your pocket, and don't even get TOT for that. The fact that the Indian economy - a rather poor developing economy, - is being openly bullied, it is nothing to be proud of.
But that's the price of buying something from a politically powerful country that isn't US or Russia.
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My point is that the unit cost of a Su-57 5th generation fighter jet is only 42 million USD, which is lower than the 67 million USD cost of the Indian-made Tejas MK1A, a 4th generation light fighter jet, and significantly less than the 400 million USD for India-specific Rafales. Creating a namesake 5th generation fighter jet might be straightforward, but the true assessment of its capabilities lies in the hands of a professional air force. The primary objective of an air force is to win wars, not merely to showcase fighter jets.
 
Deino

Deino

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Pataliputra said:
No Indian military official refuted the substantial and evident border that India shares with China. The Chief of the Indian Air Force stated that the Chinese J-20 is not a 5th generation fighter jet, indicating that there is no urgent need for a 5th generation fighter jet for the Indian Air Force. The suggestion is that the IAF can patiently await the development of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
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Ok, since you are new here just a kind reminder! We are not a Jai Hind forum and any such claim "The Chief of the Indian Air Force stated this and that is not a fact, but an opinion. Further more, what India believes - most of all for its own public is again a different story - is totally irrelevant. As such, discussion and arguments are fine, but stating this as facts won't be tolerated. As such, PLEASE calm down with such bolt statements:

Even more - I was just meeting a high ranking Indian analyst last weekend, who told me stories, even I did not believe ... India does not even get the Tejas ready in a condition the IAF accepts, the Mk.1A is a lame political attempt for savig face, the Mk.2 is again much too late and will similar to the Mk1A now be produced at best homeopathic numbers for many years to come and that all for a type. barely comparable to what China produces in large numbers sine decades, barely what the IAF needs and still about 30-40 years too late.

As such, calm down!.
 
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Pataliputra

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Deino said:
Ok, since you are new here just a kind reminder! We are not a Jai Hind forum and any such claim "The Chief of the Indian Air Force stated this and that is not a fact, but an opinion. Further more, what India believes - most of all for its own public is again a different story - is totally irrelevant. As such, discussion and arguments are fine, but stating this as facts won't be tolerated. As such, PLEASE calm down with such bolt statements:

Even more - I was just meeting a high ranking Indian analyst last weekend, who told me stories, even I did not believe ... India does not even get the Tejas ready in a condition the IAF accepts, the Mk.1A is a lame political attempt for savig face, the Mk.2 is again much too late and will similar to the Mk1A now be produced at best homeopathic numbers for many years to come and that all for a type. barely comparable to what China produces in large numbers sine decades, barely what the IAF needs and still about 30-40 years too late.

As such, calm down!.
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The delay in Tejas MK1A is attributed to the Indian Air Force's insistence on accepting it only after it meets their minimum requirements. The IAF, being a professional institution and not a political party or media house, formulates statements about a platform based on rigorous evaluation and testing.
 
Deino

Deino

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Pataliputra said:
My point is that the unit cost of a Su-57 5th generation fighter jet is only 42 million USD, which is lower than the 67 million USD cost of the Indian-made Tejas MK1A, a 4th generation light fighter jet, and significantly less than the 400 million USD for India-specific Rafales. Creating a namesake 5th generation fighter jet might be straightforward, but the true assessment of its capabilities lies in the hands of a professional air force. The primary objective of an air force is to win wars, not merely to showcase fighter jets.
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Point is, these information have to be taken with tons of salt and even more, the Su-57 is plain and simple not ready. Russia is just like India, endless bragging, endless bombastic announcements and in the end we get little or nothing out of it.

Therefore, it is very clear: the Su-57 is not an alternative for India and should India ever rethink in this direction - which would hardly surprise me - then the US will reconsider all systems delivered in recent years such as the C-17, C-130J, P-8I etc. and will quickly unplug it so it's over! As such, calm down and leave these Jai Hind reverie and wake up
 
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pevade

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Pataliputra said:
The delay in Tejas MK1A is attributed to the Indian Air Force's insistence on accepting it only after it meets their minimum requirements. The IAF, being a professional institution and not a political party or media house, formulates statements about a platform based on rigorous evaluation and testing.
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Yeah, AKA Tejas is currently is too shit.
 
Deino

Deino

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Pataliputra said:
The delay in Tejas MK1A is attributed to the Indian Air Force's insistence on accepting it only after it meets their minimum requirements. The IAF, being a professional institution and not a political party or media house, formulates statements about a platform based on rigorous evaluation and testing.
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Well, my impression and experiences since decades are vastly different and just in mind of how the MK.2 evolved from the Mk.1 and what the IN just right now thinks it could do with its carriers and maybe Rafales is a joke!
 
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xypher

Senior Member
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Pataliputra said:
When an IAF official explicitly states that the Chinese J-20 is not recognized as a fifth-generation fighter jet and highlights the lack of an immediate need for such an aircraft, coupled with the willingness to await the development of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), there are undoubtedly specific reasons guiding this position.
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Yeah, you are correct, there is a reason for that statement - IAF and the Indian government are trying to save face after multiple failures on the domestic aircraft development front, so now they are trying to change the narrative to "these programs are not urgent" and pretend that it is the reason why the results have been so lackluster.

As for J-20, Indians can keep living in the fantasy land and listen to the gospel by their talking heads, that won't change the fact that most credible military analysts (i.e. non-Indian) consider J-20 to be a 5-th gen aircraft, including the traditionally anti-Chinese think tanks based in the US. Just remember that burying your head into the sand to avoid the uncomfortable truth can lead to a disaster down the line.
 
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ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
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Pataliputra said:
My point is that the unit cost of a Su-57 5th generation fighter jet is only 42 million USD, which is lower than the 67 million USD cost of the Indian-made Tejas MK1A, a 4th generation light fighter jet, and significantly less than the 400 million USD for India-specific Rafales. Creating a namesake 5th generation fighter jet might be straightforward, but the true assessment of its capabilities lies in the hands of a professional air force. The primary objective of an air force is to win wars, not merely to showcase fighter jets.
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Pataliputra said:
The India-specific Rafales are deemed more capable fighter jets than the J-20. The substantial cost of 400 million USD per Rafale, compared to the 90 million USD for an F-35 and 42 million USD for a Su-57, as well as the 67 million USD for the Indian-made Tejas MK1A, reflects certain reasons behind India's investment in these aircraft.
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If "merely to showcase fighter jets" is all you can think of when trying to explain about other countries developing 5th-gen fighters, and that "our way-overpriced 4th-gen fighters are absolutely superior to the opposing 5th-gen fighters because we paid so much for them" - Then let me be very honest with you:

You know very, very little about what you are talking about.

So here is my little advice to you: How about you keep your keyboard less busy, and your mouse slightly busier? Go have some read arounds on what fighter jet generations (and that what 4th and 5th-gen fighters) are actually about.

Oh, and one more thing - Buying one Toyota Corolla with the price of 4 Corollas doesn't make your Corolla anywhere close to beating the Bugatti Chiron.
 
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Biscuits

Colonel
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Pataliputra said:
No Indian military official refuted the substantial and evident border that India shares with China. The Chief of the Indian Air Force stated that the Chinese J-20 is not a 5th generation fighter jet, indicating that there is no urgent need for a 5th generation fighter jet for the Indian Air Force. The suggestion is that the IAF can patiently await the development of the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
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That sounds like serious dereliction of duty. Is that particular official still serving in the military?

When China, Russia, US and rest of NATO, even third world countries and some places that aren't even countries like Taiwan and Houthis treat J-20/35 as functionally same generation and type as F-22/35, then it shows severe incompetence, I do not think any famously incompetent army in the last decade has gone so far as to just ignore the existence of military developments that's not in their favor.
Pataliputra said:
The India-specific Rafales are deemed more capable fighter jets than the J-20. The substantial cost of 400 million USD per Rafale, compared to the 90 million USD for an F-35 and 42 million USD for a Su-57, as well as the 67 million USD for the Indian-made Tejas MK1A, reflects certain reasons behind India's investment in these aircraft.
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I've never seen the likes of such copium. So if China marked up a J-10 to 400 million, it would magically become more capable than F-22?

Hell, America wouldn't need NGAD either, just buy Rafales from France, making sure each Rafale is sold at over 500 million, which would make them better than India-specific Rafales, J-20, F-22, and the NGAD as well, unless the NGAD has a price of over 500 million...

Pilots from both the PLAAF and USAF are clear on that 4.5th gen simply get destroyed against 5th gen in aerial combat.
 
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