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Abominable

Major
Registered Member
As I see it, India can definitely reach Germany or France level in military tech even within a few years if they perform a figurative massacre of all the corrupt in their government.

The talent pool and money should be comparable. France and Germany are hardly that high level, they're on par with the J-10A in their true domestic tech and when you include foreign components, they can reach the sophistication of J-10C.

If India could boot all those without merit in their defense programs, all the fat ones that do nothing but delay and pocket money, there's no way they cannot reach Rafale level by themselves. Especially now when they have Rafales right there to reverse engineer.

I think Tejas itself is too fraught with problems, especially due to the plane size. It was a product of the time of laziness. But the Tejas mk2 or even an entirely new design could definitely be a "peak 4.5 gen", and with the help of using the foreign items they already have, there are theoretically no barriers except misappropriation of funds and time.

The F414 India wants to import is at a first glance not a good choice in performance, but if they get really good transfer of tech terms and they can indigenize it, its much better than getting hands on something with flashier stats they can't indigenize.

I'm not an aircraft engineer, but the most important components of an aircraft that hard to master is basically the avionics, the engine and the missiles. 1 and 3 are closely related. If India can get just 1 or 2 of those components down to a world class level, they will have already arrived at same level as most EU countries, and that is an achievement to be proud of.
France???

France has one of the best aviation industries in the world, and have been making planes since planes were a thing. The Rafale is one of the best air superiority platforms in the world right now.

India on the other hand has created one subsonic jet (with foreign technology) in the 70s, and then spent 40 years trying to develop a 4th gen fighter.

If anything India is falling further behind.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Everything is a paper dream until it isn't. The WS-10 begin its development in the late 80's, 30+ years ago. WS-10 was not reliable enough to be put into a single engine fighter until last year, I mean one could apply this same argument of yours to say that for all those 30+ years, China's engine production was just a dream. China had to reinvent the wheel, India does not.

And yet Kaveri (modern one based on M88, not the failed initial project) will be in development around 2020s and reach the same level in the 2050s. Unless you think Kaveri will suddenly and immediately become the same level of maturity, skipping over 10 years of improvements that WS-10A to WS-10C have gone through as just the main WS-10 lineage rather than the smaller incremental improvements and experimental stages in between every single iteration that exist in the lineage.

China's engine production was just a dream in the 1980s. Now, 40 years later, it has 12+ years of WIDESPREAD service and 3 years of single engine service (not sure why you keep saying J-10 has only been using WS-10 for one year when you keep being corrected).

Compare the above to India's Kaveri program. 0 years of service in operational fighter with IAF. In fact the original Kaveri is not airworthy and was scrapped because critical issues could not be resolved. New Kaveri based on SAFRAN is still a paper dream. None of the heavy lifting work has been done. We're not even talking teething and improving it over a decade or so, nothing is concretely done on this program. To define paper dreams, the Indian one is a textbook example of paper dreaming. Comparing WS-10 to Kaveri is like comparing a 2010 Toyota Camry to a 2022 concept car from a new startup with an employee count of 50.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I have often been disappointed with discussions here concerning India. Most topics and nations can be discussed here in a generally productive manner. Unfortunately it is clear that many of the posters who frequent the India threads here do so not of out any genuine interest in the status and ongoing development of India's armed forces, industry, or economy, but solely in order to mock India's (lack of) achievements, the gap between rhetoric and action. A kind of "bad faith" engagement is the rule, rather the exception, and that is regrettable.
That's completely true but it's grossly misleading to leave out the other side of the argument: Indians bring this on themselves through their rhetoric and conduct.
Real progress is being made, and in the long-term I do believe that India's achievements will be more than sufficient to disturb the established powers of this world (many of whom seem to be under the illusion, just as they were with China, that India will stay in its box forever), but surely this must be one of the ugliest races that has ever been run.
I've looked deeply into this issue for a while precisely because I want an answer to this question of India's supposed "potential." While we all have our biases, I've pressed myself to be objective about this. I can summarize my serious conclusions is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme format

Broke: Because India has a large population, it will automatically have a large economy.

Woke: There are several crucial structural factors that ensure India will consistently underperform - poor and irreformable governance, a caste system prohibiting full economic participation, a multiplicity of mutually unintelligible dialects and languages, strong regionalism and autonomy, lack of education and human development, democracy preventing long-term planning, pseudo-socialist laws preventing markets from functioning, perverse incentives throughout the economy, lack of government capacity to build infrastructure, etc.

Bespoke: There's no such thing as "India."
I guess the reason I am writing this, in light of how things have unfolded these past few pages, is because I do not wish to be associated with the kinds of posters who only wish to see India fail, and I regret if my recent posts have been interpreted in that vein.
Whatever your motives, your posts are usually thoughtful and in this context would be more useful than just passing scorn. As I said, I take the possibility - as remote as it is - of a competent India seriously.
I would like to see a healthier atmosphere in discussions of Indian matters here, an atmosphere where questions and criticism are motivated by good-faith attempts at understanding, rather than by scorn and hostility, but I don't know if that is possible.
I haven't seen anything particularly toxic from any members here about India; on the contrary, the toxicity is almost always from Indian trolls. Even were that not the case, why do you think India merits any respect based on the conduct of its supporters here?
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
As for direct and total transfer of technology and I mean an absolutely comprehensive one, then yes, India would have "caught up" in the sense that they have got a decent working engine that can be used to power airforce fighters. The issue with this is no country is going to be sharing any of the critical technologies and I'm fairly confident India has the ability and has most of the non-critical stuff ready and mastered. If it's a direct sale only with none of the knowhow given, then for the Indian engine industry it's still in the same spot albeit with the difference of being able to bolt together an M88 or F414 or whatever is purchased and "ToTed".

Assuming paying vast mountainous sums of money India can barely afford (since it comes at the expense of already over 500 million of some of the poorest peoples on the planet), and somehow GE or SAFRAN agree to ToT, it would still take years for one generation of engineers to become masters of that particular engine but of course with plenty of fast learning achieved by bypassing much of the trial and error and iterations. Money can sort of buy that. Let's talk about that when it actually happens and then talk further about it after those engineers master everything. It would be many years before agreements and handover and nearly another decade for comprehensive mastering of every aspect of either the M88 or F414.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
The truth is there is no real comparison to be made when no Indian turbofan has ever fully powered an aircraft. That is the legacy of the Kaveri. India had one engine project and that project has simply failed.

The WS-10, which was developed during the same time period as the Kaveri, is now fitted or will be fitted on five frontline fighter programs (J-10, J-16, J-11, J-20 and J-15.) The WS-13 has powered JF-17 test machines and FC-31 and J-35 prototypes. Something the Kaveri has never done for the LCA.

By the time the hoped-for ToT from GE or Safran or RR arrives in India if ever, the WS-15, WS-21 and WS-19 would have come online.

And then there is not even a whiff of an Indian program for high bypass engines like the WS-20 or CJ1000/2000/500.

India is right now so far behind in aero engines that the amount of years can't even be determined as of yet. An actual Chinese number divided by an Indian zero gives us an "undefined" as answer.
 

Chandragupt

Junior Member
Registered Member
The truth is there is no real comparison to be made when no Indian turbofan has ever fully powered an aircraft. That is the legacy of the Kaveri. India had one engine project and that project has simply failed.

The WS-10, which was developed during the same time period as the Kaveri, is now fitted or will be fitted on five frontline fighter programs (J-10, J-16, J-11, J-20 and J-15.) The WS-13 has powered JF-17 test machines and FC-31 and J-35 prototypes. Something the Kaveri has never done for the LCA.

By the time the hoped-for ToT from GE or Safran or RR arrives in India if ever, the WS-15, WS-21 and WS-19 would have come online.

And then there is not even a whiff of an Indian program for high bypass engines like the WS-20 or CJ1000/2000/500.

India is right now so far behind in aero engines that the amount of years can't even be determined as of yet. An actual Chinese number divided by an Indian zero gives us an "undefined" as answer.
Dry variant of Kaveri engine is about to be certified for GHATAK Stealth Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicle
Indians are facing the problem in hot core section it produces only 73KN of thrust which is not sufficient to power LCA Tejas
 

Fulcrum007

New Member
Registered Member
IIRC, there was an effort to reverse-engineer AL-31 but it was dropped out.

The elusive "Ganga" engine. GTRE in the early 2010s began work to develop a turbofan with a higher bypass ratio than the Kaveri with the same Kabini core. The proposed engine was called the "Ganga" & was supposed to be as powerful as the Su-30MKI's Al-31FP. The project was never mentioned by MoD in any of its publications as an ongoing program. From what is plausible, GTRE used some of their internal funds for the project. Though it is not sure how could they afford to issue tenders & acquire new fans without a separate budget for this program. May be it was approved after all, who knows.

1635610999764.pngThis is not the same fan as the current distortion tolerant fan one on the dry Kaveri. This is a different fan, an upgraded version of the original 78 kg/s fan. Notice how the fan's bearing mounts have gone behind the 1st stage of the fan. The nose is significantly larger & the fan did have BLISK. The fan was manufactured by Kalyani/Bharat Forge. They were one of the few Indian companies that could do aerospace grade manufacturing of Titanium alloys with micron level tolerances. Titanium alloys are notoriously difficult to machine.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
In terms of engines India has yet to even show ability to make AL-31 by license. The F414 which Indian is trying to import is one of the worst among the American lineup, it is 2 generations behind their best and in terms of sophistication can only match the basic unupgraded WS-13.

Should this engine be used, it does not bode well for a plane to be designed around such inferior engines. India should have better aimed for acquiring a license production of AL-41 or even tried to talk Russia into Izd 30, although the latter seems unlikely.

An interesting thing is that India always want to use 2 engine fighters instead of single engine ones, even when such as in this case they end up paying heavily for it because the only ones that sell small engines intend to sell only outdated ones.

What is the reason a single engine fighter using AL-41 is not pursued?

MOD EDIT: Deleted escalatory statement, JF-17 comparison
 
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