Also i'd add that Afghanistan was(and to some extent remains) a border of Indian cultural sphere.
Chinese states and empires were often created from beyond(at least back then). It didn't make China anything less; it doesn't do India lesser either.
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- Thread starter bd popeye
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Chinese states and empires were often created from beyond(at least back then). It didn't make China anything less; it doesn't do India lesser either.
This is the Indian military thread, so let's not dive too deep into Indian history. Wouldn't want the powers that be to be upset with us!
To be fair, I don't know if I have or have not studied Indian history. The answer would really depend on what you consider the words "study" and "Indian" to mean.
Case in point: some people consider the Mughals to be Indian, some people don't. Just as Chinese people generally consider the Yuan and Qing dynasties to be Chinese, but some Westerners think otherwise.
Arguing about the past feels kind of futile and silly to me.
Let's try to be gracious with the history of other cultures. They're going to believe what they want to believe anyhow, so might as well as let them reimagine history in their minds.
Think of it as humoring children if that makes it any easier for you . . .
This all feels like it's coming from some unaddressed, underlying sense of "competitiveness". The whole fascination with winning "wars of perception" - because so many (and I'm not accusing you currently of being one) seem to only care about declaring some poorly contrived notions of success, they therefore become "superior" to the other. It helps in those circumstances to have "ammo" for internet fights. We see it all the time and it's not even limited to countries or tribes/groups like sporting teams.
I'd say maybe I'm singling out this part but it seems to me as some grievance about not being able to "one up" China and therefore having less ammo for internet debates. I mean I see Indian nationalists engage in crazy levels of grand proclamations online and it certainly would help them if for example Uttam radar was indeed xyz in service year 2018 or whatever they were claiming. Point is this is entirely the wrong place for this sort of talk unless you want to invite members to feel sorry for India or make fun of it (only will get one or the other).
Which sort of leads to the second point I want to make and it's a general statement based on personal observation and beliefs.
Why does India generally choose to stand more on the side of these imperialists? This isn't a question for you. It's a rhetorical one. Unfortunately the answer is complicated and I know what the intersect of Indian nationalists and China hating Indians will believe when it comes to this question.
Still China was the one that truly carved out its own path when it started in the mid - late 20th century. India could do the same but you will find Indians online talking so much shit about China it was bound to cultivate Chinese hatred... and there's certainly much more of it now than there was in the past as I've always said even more than a decade ago. The level to which this is true surprises even me. Can India not also carve out its own space and begin its own rejuvenation without having to participate in QUAD or whatever next failure will be? No it's not about Pakistan or border disputes with China. Refusal to stand alone and work with China while constantly acting under the faith of western manipulation about China.
I mean western manipulation was literally what started India China border dispute at Ladakh.
More Indians prefer to see China suffer than the West. I think this sort of provides an insight into your passage i've quoted. As other Chinese have said in the past... individuals smarter than myself, people always just respect wealth and power. Focus on cultivating these and enemies fall themselves if they're not asking to partner with you. It's where the 'China, do nothing, win' meme comes from.
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Amazing how so many people in this thread bend over backwards to be nice to India yet the local Indian keep doing the Indian thing: brag about non-existent achievements and blame all his country's problems on foreigners("no ToT").
I understand that many of the pro-Indian posters here don't like to see India belittled and feel pity for them. But at some point we have to face the facts. It would a lot easier for me to feel sorry for India if Indians came across as humble people working hard to catch up. Instead they are extremely arrogant with zero achievements to show for it while showing no genuine commitment to change. Why constantly make excuses for this type of behaviour? It appears to me like many of the pro-Indian posters here simply have Indian friends in the West and are rooting for India for that reason alone. Which is fine, but folks have to remember that the Indian diaspora in the West is not representative of the average Indian back home.
I've come to understand that people like @GiantPanda are right, the endless excuses just mask an underlying issue: lack of human capital. India should just accept it's not capable of producing a first class jet fleet. So it makes sense to partner up with Russia or someone else for the long-term. As someone noted, if India had stuck with the Russians then it would have far more 4th gen fighters today and a 5th gen fighter. But its own arrogance coupled with the usual incompetence got in the way. And now the excuse-making starts.
As an aside, India's backwardness in jets is not an existential issue because it has the nuclear triad. So we shouldn't pretend like this is a do-or-die issue for them. It's an embarrassment, to be sure, but not a lethal one.