Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think you haven't studied their history. The most prosperous eras in Indian history were under foreign rule. The most notable Indian monuments are foreign constructed. The most powerful empires there were of foreign stock. Even their main religions, collectively known as Hinduism, is foreign. Bloody hell, even the word india is foreign.

They are proud, yes, but this pride is built on delusions, and it's a fairly new development. What you have today as a Hindu-led federation is a very new concept with a very short history. Also, quite unstable.

This is the Indian military thread, so let's not dive too deep into Indian history. Wouldn't want the powers that be to be upset with us!

To be fair, I don't know if I have or have not studied Indian history. The answer would really depend on what you consider the words "study" and "Indian" to mean.

Case in point: some people consider the Mughals to be Indian, some people don't. Just as Chinese people generally consider the Yuan and Qing dynasties to be Chinese, but some Westerners think otherwise.

Arguing about the past feels kind of futile and silly to me.

Let's try to be gracious with the history of other cultures. They're going to believe what they want to believe anyhow, so might as well as let them reimagine history in their minds.

Think of it as humoring children if that makes it any easier for you . . .
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
We can argue all we want, but with only failures to show for when asked for results, we just dont stand a chance, especially in a forum populated by people who have a thriving defense industry according to their needs (majority of countries), even when we have some valid points. But i will say that i am glad that we still are trying and not giving up.

This all feels like it's coming from some unaddressed, underlying sense of "competitiveness". The whole fascination with winning "wars of perception" - because so many (and I'm not accusing you currently of being one) seem to only care about declaring some poorly contrived notions of success, they therefore become "superior" to the other. It helps in those circumstances to have "ammo" for internet fights. We see it all the time and it's not even limited to countries or tribes/groups like sporting teams.

I'd say maybe I'm singling out this part but it seems to me as some grievance about not being able to "one up" China and therefore having less ammo for internet debates. I mean I see Indian nationalists engage in crazy levels of grand proclamations online and it certainly would help them if for example Uttam radar was indeed xyz in service year 2018 or whatever they were claiming. Point is this is entirely the wrong place for this sort of talk unless you want to invite members to feel sorry for India or make fun of it (only will get one or the other).

Which sort of leads to the second point I want to make and it's a general statement based on personal observation and beliefs.

Still,
I would choose our relentless efforts, even if we fail spectacularly each time, over the stagnation of never trying at all. Failures are inevitable, and we should never let them deter us. It doesn’t matter if the world laughs or seeks to dehumanize us – we must continue to push forward. We left behind the brits in space capabilites despite them equating us to
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and killing us like
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.
We need to learn and innovate better paths in order to get to our dreams, not just give up if we fail to do so.

Why does India generally choose to stand more on the side of these imperialists? This isn't a question for you. It's a rhetorical one. Unfortunately the answer is complicated and I know what the intersect of Indian nationalists and China hating Indians will believe when it comes to this question.

Still China was the one that truly carved out its own path when it started in the mid - late 20th century. India could do the same but you will find Indians online talking so much shit about China it was bound to cultivate Chinese hatred... and there's certainly much more of it now than there was in the past as I've always said even more than a decade ago. The level to which this is true surprises even me. Can India not also carve out its own space and begin its own rejuvenation without having to participate in QUAD or whatever next failure will be? No it's not about Pakistan or border disputes with China. Refusal to stand alone and work with China while constantly acting under the faith of western manipulation about China.
I mean western manipulation was literally what started India China border dispute at Ladakh.

More Indians prefer to see China suffer than the West. I think this sort of provides an insight into your passage i've quoted. As other Chinese have said in the past... individuals smarter than myself, people always just respect wealth and power. Focus on cultivating these and enemies fall themselves if they're not asking to partner with you. It's where the 'China, do nothing, win' meme comes from.
 
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mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
India’s indigenous contributions to civilization, architecture, religion, and governance are profound and have shaped not just South Asia, but the world. India’s current pride in its heritage is built on a rich, ancient tradition, not on “delusions.”

Amazing how so many people in this thread bend over backwards to be nice to India yet the local Indian keep doing the Indian thing: brag about non-existent achievements and blame all his country's problems on foreigners("no ToT").

I understand that many of the pro-Indian posters here don't like to see India belittled and feel pity for them. But at some point we have to face the facts. It would a lot easier for me to feel sorry for India if Indians came across as humble people working hard to catch up. Instead they are extremely arrogant with zero achievements to show for it while showing no genuine commitment to change. Why constantly make excuses for this type of behaviour? It appears to me like many of the pro-Indian posters here simply have Indian friends in the West and are rooting for India for that reason alone. Which is fine, but folks have to remember that the Indian diaspora in the West is not representative of the average Indian back home.

I've come to understand that people like @GiantPanda are right, the endless excuses just mask an underlying issue: lack of human capital. India should just accept it's not capable of producing a first class jet fleet. So it makes sense to partner up with Russia or someone else for the long-term. As someone noted, if India had stuck with the Russians then it would have far more 4th gen fighters today and a 5th gen fighter. But its own arrogance coupled with the usual incompetence got in the way. And now the excuse-making starts.

As an aside, India's backwardness in jets is not an existential issue because it has the nuclear triad. So we shouldn't pretend like this is a do-or-die issue for them. It's an embarrassment, to be sure, but not a lethal one.
 

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
People like me cant do anything about it except argue in vain as the Indian MIC fails to deliver everytime(it might have improved in certain areas a lot, but still) despite taking many traditional, logical or novel approaches. They have tried everything under the sun and you will find an example of every kind of recruitment, procurement, R&D thinking and initiative you can imagine if you search hard enough.
The reason is because most supporting industries cannot exist in a vacuum. For example, the only way to support a radar industry is to either export or use domestically radar systems. Otherwise, many of the components simply do not see use elsewhere.

Again, what has happened is that from 1960 to 1990, Indian procurement revolves around buying everything foreign, with very little domestic work on anything. The result is a generally atrophied MIC that, now, has been asked to spontaneously form resilient domestic supply lines for technology that India has not really worked on for 30+ years. This is of course an absurd request, and it is little wonder that the MIC struggles so greatly with delivery schedules and indigenization of components.

No matter how innovative or sensible a procurement strategy is, if any attempt is made to indigenize components of the procurement product, then it is inevitable that it runs into this problem. Of course, some technologies have more overlap with civilian stuff than others: for example, India does not appear to struggle with diesel engines very greatly because the civilian industry exists, but for things like jet engines, there is no existing civilian or military industry because no effort has been made to build Indian jet engines since the 1970s.

It is, to be honest not anyone's fault at this point. Although, the people who keep placing such high demands on domestic MIC should probably consider how hard it is to spontaneously develop a good understanding of such complex components (it is a bit like thinking that you could build a 4-cylinder internal combustion engine by yourself if you were dropped in the 1500s). It is, however, absolutely the fault of Indian procurement decision-makers from the 1960s onwards.
 

Lethe

Captain
Triple commissioning ceremony
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on January 15th in Mumbai. The ships to be commissioned:

INS Surat, the fourth and final P15B destroyer.
INS Nilgiri, the first of seven P17A frigates.
INS Vagsheer, the sixth Scorpene submarine and final unit of the current* batch.

Also
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was the frigate INS Tushil, built in Russia with Ukrainian engines, with sister INS Tamala expected to follow within months.

* A follow-on order for an additional three Scorpene submarines has been kicking around for a while now and is anticipated to be finalised in the coming months.
 
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FighterHead

New Member
Registered Member
Amazing how so many people in this thread bend over backwards to be nice to India yet the local Indian keep doing the Indian thing: brag about non-existent achievements and blame all his country's problems on foreigners("no ToT").

I understand that many of the pro-Indian posters here don't like to see India belittled and feel pity for them. But at some point we have to face the facts. It would a lot easier for me to feel sorry for India if Indians came across as humble people working hard to catch up. Instead they are extremely arrogant with zero achievements to show for it while showing no genuine commitment to change. Why constantly make excuses for this type of behaviour? It appears to me like many of the pro-Indian posters here simply have Indian friends in the West and are rooting for India for that reason alone. Which is fine, but folks have to remember that the Indian diaspora in the West is not representative of the average Indian back home.

I've come to understand that people like @GiantPanda are right, the endless excuses just mask an underlying issue: lack of human capital. India should just accept it's not capable of producing a first class jet fleet. So it makes sense to partner up with Russia or someone else for the long-term. As someone noted, if India had stuck with the Russians then it would have far more 4th gen fighters today and a 5th gen fighter. But its own arrogance coupled with the usual incompetence got in the way. And now the excuse-making starts.

As an aside, India's backwardness in jets is not an existential issue because it has the nuclear triad. So we shouldn't pretend like this is a do-or-die issue for them. It's an embarrassment, to be sure, but not a lethal one.
I do not understand your point. The statement which you quoted was a reply to the comment which was trying to twist Indian history with wrong facts. It was not to be boastful, but to remind the commentator that India has a solid history stretching milllenias of which it can be proud of. Just because it failed to make military or other stuff in 21st century does not mean that it cant be prideful of its rich history. Also, that reply was AI generated, it did not come out of any Indian's mouth here. AI is Artificial intelligence, not Actually Indians ffs.

The members in this sub bending over backwards to be nice to India is something which i havent observed. Unless you equate being 'factual' and 'rational' to 'being nice'. What do you even mean by that statement. Do you think that people arguing rationally here are being too soft on loud, boastful and weak Indians who otherwise deserve to be squashed by the other powers? Are you doing us a favor by not being racist?
Or is it that people here are being soft by not refuting every point I make, or actually giving two shits about the points I make. I havent seen the oppsite of them happening. People here are giving meaningful explanations and reasoning behind their thoughts and we also agree on many points. Let me repeat it again, Indian MIC has done everything it needed to attain this level of ridicule by everyone.
But that does not mean that everything happened because 'muh, Indians are too boastful and cant work hard enough with an ounce of humility'. That simplifies it way too much and conveniently skips over the intricate complexities, politics and incompetence leading to this scenario.
I seriously do not understand this statement and why you felt the need to say it.

coming to your point about the human capital, I refuted this satement in my very first reply on this forum. its on page 1069.
Indias problem of human capital is a real one and should be concerning for us, BUT it is far from being the 'main' problem hindering our quest to develop an advanced plane. The Finger should first and primarily be pointed at the Bad/very bad management of the project. The human capital already available was badly managed, the funds were badly managed, the priorities and realities were badly managed. Everything was badly managed, and our Defense circle and MIC seem to have done a PhD in it. The day when our planners get rid of inside politics and actually manage the projects better, will be the day when our MIC can realistically aim of competing with those of the advanced countries. Of course we would need huge amounts of money for it too but that comes after this has been done.

Regarding your last line, I wholeheartedly agree with it.
 

FighterHead

New Member
Registered Member
This all feels like it's coming from some unaddressed, underlying sense of "competitiveness". The whole fascination with winning "wars of perception" - because so many (and I'm not accusing you currently of being one) seem to only care about declaring some poorly contrived notions of success, they therefore become "superior" to the other. It helps in those circumstances to have "ammo" for internet fights. We see it all the time and it's not even limited to countries or tribes/groups like sporting teams.

I'd say maybe I'm singling out this part but it seems to me as some grievance about not being able to "one up" China and therefore having less ammo for internet debates. I mean I see Indian nationalists engage in crazy levels of grand proclamations online and it certainly would help them if for example Uttam radar was indeed xyz in service year 2018 or whatever they were claiming. Point is this is entirely the wrong place for this sort of talk unless you want to invite members to feel sorry for India or make fun of it (only will get one or the other).

Which sort of leads to the second point I want to make and it's a general statement based on personal observation and beliefs.



Why does India generally choose to stand more on the side of these imperialists? This isn't a question for you. It's a rhetorical one. Unfortunately the answer is complicated and I know what the intersect of Indian nationalists and China hating Indians will believe when it comes to this question.

Still China was the one that truly carved out its own path when it started in the mid - late 20th century. India could do the same but you will find Indians online talking so much shit about China it was bound to cultivate Chinese hatred... and there's certainly much more of it now than there was in the past as I've always said even more than a decade ago. The level to which this is true surprises even me. Can India not also carve out its own space and begin its own rejuvenation without having to participate in QUAD or whatever next failure will be? No it's not about Pakistan or border disputes with China. Refusal to stand alone and work with China while constantly acting under the faith of western manipulation about China.
I mean western manipulation was literally what started India China border dispute at Ladakh.

More Indians prefer to see China suffer than the West. I think this sort of provides an insight into your passage i've quoted. As other Chinese have said in the past... individuals smarter than myself, people always just respect wealth and power. Focus on cultivating these and enemies fall themselves if they're not asking to partner with you. It's where the 'China, do nothing, win' meme comes from.
You would be correct in the underlying message of your first paragraph. I said the quoted paragraph in order to give a perspective into the mentality from which many online keyboard warriors(good and bad) suffer in Indian defense circle. It was not meant to be a post to invite members to feel pity for india. It was a reply to address the statement made by the user FairandUnbiased who said that all he can see are excuses from my side. I tried to explain to him that whatever reasoning we put forward, will always be called as excuses, even when we make some actual good points. This is a general trend which we face on the internet, I wont say we face it here at SDF at the same amount as other places. It was a generalised POV of the mind of an average Indian internet warrior.
At the end of the day, both the Chinese and Indian military, actually a vast majority of the world's military apparatus are insulated from public opinions. It does not matter what we say here, it wont affect our military planners in the slightest. SO, your opinion of one upping each other like in some competition is nothing but absolute truth. People feel superior if they are ahead of their enemies/adversaries/opponents and all of the achievements of the defense industry, especially among the Nuclear armed countries, is nothing but extra ammo for internet fights. They try to win the 'Wars of perception'.
Why did i say things like that then? Well its because i am a defense enthusiast and just like a sports fan, I want my team to perform, atleast to the level which they are actually capable of. I dont need any war, wars are bad and should not be treated as competition but I want My own Defense MIC, the one funded by the tax money of my people, to make something truely advanced and prove its worth.


Your second paragraph, regarding India standing with the imperialists, the politics, the lobbying is beyond my level to speak about and i am also confused as to what you meant by it. Regardless, its a topic which deserves its own thread. Too vast and too complicated for us to summarize.

Next, about the point of Indians hating chinese. I think i have some explaining to do, although I wont go into the politics of 2020 and 2017 clashesand the mentality that the Leader have. i will stick to the realm of general populace. lets start.
Internet in India was too expensive, like really expensive, for the ordinary people to make use of it. It was also very slow, had poor coverage and just like many things in India, had a
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related to it. Many would argue it was
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the way it was, But then, a man named Mukesh Ambani (Indias richest man) felt bad for his homies in 'da hood and decided to make internet fast, have wide coverage and above all, be FREE to use (this was a business tactic which i humorized for no reason. You should actually read about it in detail as its a very interesting topic, you can start from
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). Suddenly, we Indians now had access to the full glory of the Internet and we began to use it to fulfill all the things we were missing out on. Many Indians, like me,for the first time had access to the internet. And of course, the hypernationalists too got access to it (its joever).
Now, It just so happens that Chinese relation with India soured in 2017 around the same time as all that internet revolution happened. This lead to the dumb hypernationalists who liked to belittle our "enemies" with nothing to back there statements, targeting the chinese. They sure had some pre conceived notions about other countries and they talked about it without any decency, but they were not obsessed with them and did not attack them everywhere online. You should see what happened to Pakistani online spaces after our online revolution. The news of China and India's relation souring signalled to them that China is now our enemy(we know this should not be, but what can be said about the hypernationalists). The next thing which happened was that hypernationalists, with no opposition form the chinese on the global net, got free reign to talk as much shit as they wanted. They consumed stereotypical videos of China and talked more shit. Covid and its 'supposed' origins from china, linked to consumption of bats, fed insane amounts of fuel to the fire. Indians and Chinese have very different cuisines which should be respected, but many people in India (we consume very less meat) were not comfortable with the idea that animals like bats are eaten. I know this is very disrespectful and we should respect every cuisine as it has culture and history behind it, but yeah, the whole bat eating thing did not sit right with many people. Just to add another point, this was not something unique to India, nearly the whole world did not like it. In India, unbeknownst to even many of our countrymen, we have a culture which eats
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. I am sure there are any more which even i dont know about, but again, as i said, India is too diverse and big for anyone to give two shits about every aspect of each others culture.
Barely a decade ago, Indian and Chinese soldiers were literally engaging in joint exercises, playing tug of war and drinking tea and whisky together like good friends. Indians at that time admired china without caring about the so called 'dictatorship' that China has. Heck, many Indians to this day still want the chinese style of government as they are tired of our insanely inefficient democracy
I still admire china and view it as a country filled with rich history and modernity and a vast majority of Indians( the hardworking ones who actually have shit to do instead of being a keyboard warrior) share the same sentiment. It is a place very important to humankind and we have to thank you guys for the revolutionary inventions you gave to the world( i share the same sentiment for every country in this world, as we have all contributed to make this world what it is). All i can hope for is that the World cooperates with each other even more rather than being divided and fighting.
 
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