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valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
The IAF's big problem with domestic procurement is the large 'generational' gaps between the fighters that are made in India.

The last attempt was I think the HAL Ajeet, which for some reason was procured in very small numbers despite decent performance as an aircraft, and before that, the HAL Marut, which also delivered decent performance. These two aircraft were close together. The next attempt that made it off the drawing board was the HAL Tejas.

HAL Ajeet and Marut were only a decade more advanced than aircraft that served during the war in Korea. Suddenly, there is a jump to HAL Tejas, which has several decades worth of advancements compared to the last time HAL had to design and build a fighter.

Compare this to SAC in China. SAC has had consistent fighter production all the way from the J-2 (MiG-15 license) [with J-5, J-6, J-7 in between] to the J-8 (domestic fighter comparable to MiG-21), then the J-11 (Su-27 variant) and J-16 (J-11 development, cannot really be directly compared to the Su-27 at this point).

India missed out on building several decades worth of experience with fighter aircraft programs because they chose to take the 'easy' way out and simply buy Western aircraft and now suffers the consequences. All countries with successful indigenous fighter programs (Swedes, French, Russian, American, Chinese) have a history of fighter programs going pretty far back, with consistent iterations over time. I think there is very little the IAF can do to really repair indigenous fighter design, simply because they are missing this experience.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The IAF's big problem with domestic procurement is the large 'generational' gaps between the fighters that are made in India.

The last attempt was I think the HAL Ajeet, which for some reason was procured in very small numbers despite decent performance as an aircraft, and before that, the HAL Marut, which also delivered decent performance. These two aircraft were close together. The next attempt that made it off the drawing board was the HAL Tejas.

HAL Ajeet and Marut were only a decade more advanced than aircraft that served during the war in Korea. Suddenly, there is a jump to HAL Tejas, which has several decades worth of advancements compared to the last time HAL had to design and build a fighter.

Compare this to SAC in China. SAC has had consistent fighter production all the way from the J-2 (MiG-15 license) [with J-5, J-6, J-7 in between] to the J-8 (domestic fighter comparable to MiG-21), then the J-11 (Su-27 variant) and J-16 (J-11 development, cannot really be directly compared to the Su-27 at this point).

India missed out on building several decades worth of experience with fighter aircraft programs because they chose to take the 'easy' way out and simply buy Western aircraft and now suffers the consequences. All countries with successful indigenous fighter programs (Swedes, French, Russian, American, Chinese) have a history of fighter programs going pretty far back, with consistent iterations over time. I think there is very little the IAF can do to really repair indigenous fighter design, simply because they are missing this experience.

If this is the case, and India still refuses to learn, then the Iranian subsonic stealth striker is going to be flying before AMCA and Iran will have 5th gen before India.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
It's a time issue for India. I'm personally optimistic and won't look down on India and programs like the AMCA because it's a matter of survival. If the country cannot get projects like that across the finish line, it's a negative signal about the country as a whole not just it's MIC.
My 5 cents is that problem is they're exactly not a matter of survival.

India always has "better export" option, and its survival as a country isn't threatened by lack of fighters.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
The Su 57 are still not ready and if we take its current configuration, it is not much better then the rafale.
French indeed try to sell it this way(as do swedes; what choice do they have?), but if you are bought into it, you're the root of your own problems.

Twice so because it is french, I e you knew what you signed up for.

There's at least some merit, however questionable, when 4.5 gen aircraft are pitched against other 5 gen; the latter come with some sacrifices due to a conceptual switch.

Against su-57 in particular, any preceding gen fighter aircraft is massively worse in-literally-every-single-way.
Lack of Critical Tech Transfers: One of the main demands was the ability to independently upgrade and maintain the aircraft, which required access to sensitive source codes. We had asked for 100% ToT. Russia repeatedly refused to share this information unless India increased its financial contribution(to upto 7 billion dollars for R&D alone, dont forget India would have to spend a whopping
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to get 144 aircrafts), which was a non-starter for India’s long-term self-reliance goals and also hard to finance.
I.e. rafale price(without tot) for concurrent tot. Which is called sharing the burden.

Otherwise, Russia shouldered 100% of burden, and it doesn't need India for anything in the project. Why the tech transfer?

If India though that 5th gen tech can be obtained just for token money - what to say; 36, 1990s aircraft, outdated from birth, is your reality.
As is inability to finish even first truly operational Tejas. China, in the meantime, moved from struggling with J-7 to J-36/50.

And this also is a result of India not really caring. Of course, other countries execute just because it's normal to produce results for investment (Korea for example), but India doesn't.
 
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