Thanks so much for the warm welcome and for your balanced perspective. I really appreciate your honesty that it was difficult to discuss India on this forum. I would say that it's uplifting to see people like you striving for a more nuanced and respectful approach amidst such extremes. I fully agree with you, that only respectful, fact-based discussions can enlighten the complexities of any country's challenges in terms of its defense and industries. Although sometimes(consider it to be 90% for me) tricky to handle the atmosphere at SDF, I do hope, with good participative sense, we could do something toward developing a better and constructive debate. Thanks again for your thoughtfulness and perception, I am glad to meet and discuss topics i am interested in with people like you.
Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
A lot of the threads outside of the big ones (J-20, J-36, Type 003, etc..) suffer from this problem. Users joke and flame US/India/Taiwan and so on. SDF has it's own obvious biases and it's shown most in these outer threads.
It's a time issue for India. I'm personally optimistic and won't look down on India and programs like the AMCA because it's a matter of survival. If the country cannot get projects like that across the finish line, it's a negative signal about the country as a whole not just it's MIC.
It's a time issue for India. I'm personally optimistic and won't look down on India and programs like the AMCA because it's a matter of survival. If the country cannot get projects like that across the finish line, it's a negative signal about the country as a whole not just it's MIC.
Military forums favor those programs that are in active development. After all, these are fans' forum, where we want to see progresses and changes, not political discussions where they discuss righteousness day and night. I am pretty sure there are way more positive attitude toward Turkey's military topics than India, because of programs such as their KAAN fighter jet, etc.
I think that is correct. Turkey and Korean projects definitely garner more interest because the KAAN and KF-21 are flying! The AMCA is still just models and drawings.
I'm sorry but India, so far, has proven that it is pretty much incapable of building aircraft on its own.
For example, digging into this Indian Saras project that began around the same time as the LCA/Tejas -- I found out they had been test flying (and hyping) this pusher-configured aircraft since 2004:
But now, it seems they are back to the drawing board with the current configuration and switching it to a conventional tractor design!
So about 2 decades of work (and flying prototypes) are thrown away and all we have are models and drawings again!
That new conventional model of this Indian project looks very much like the Harbin Y-12 that China developed and exported decades ago and is now in its "F" iteration:
BTW, the Y-12 gots its EASA certificate a few years ago -- which is good precedent for the C919:
Anyhoo, there are so many aircraft, ships and space vehicles projects that we follow on SDF that even Chinese aircraft like the Y-12F (with an EASA cert!) is all but forgotten.
Unless your AMCA flies like Turks and Koreans did with their 5th Gen, there really won't be much interest in Indian projects except when someone needed something as a joke or counterpoint to compare against a successful program.
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Yeah the US certified it decades ago. I think its still the only Chinese aircraft certified in the US and E.U so far.
India never really went full in on before our deal with Russia for FGFA fell out. The article that i have linked, although old, should give an okayish overview of the mindset and concerns with the program, especially with many of the primary concerns still looming.
Presently, the Cabinet Committee on security () has given the approval for the AMCA and has sanctioned 15000 crore (1.8 billion USD) with the roll out of the first prototype planned in three years (consider late 2028 or 2029) and the first flight in one to one and (a) half years after that (expected of course). Total 5 prototypes are to be built with the first three prototypes carrying out developmental flight trials, whereas the next two will focus on weapon trials. The prototype will be rolled out at an interval of 8-9 months. Mass production of the aircraft is planned to start by 2035 following Induction.
Prototype rollout will not be of my primary concern and I am kinda expecting that we will atleast see AMCA flying before December 2030. I say this because HAL can churn out a flyable prototype easily with this level of funding, ((as we have seen with Tejas (first flight 2001) and the above mentioned SARAS Mk1)) and that the previous timelines were very vague and manipulated by Media houses regularly.
The main widely known DELAY problem will lie with the testing, evaluation, trials, etc etc of the aircraft and the final clearance for its production. Our military is notorious for sometimes overevaluating the products it wants to purchase, especially if its , and will suggest changes at the last moment, test it again, suggest new changes, test ...... and so on. They just want a fully finished, matured and PROVEN platform from the start. I hope you get the point. This stage can easily take a decade if our Babus are given free will to do what they want.
Now, I would like to inform people that 2025 has been declared as the year of and we MAY see some reforms in the procurement and R&D strategy of our military along with the other reforms planned this year. Moreover, I would like to tell people to follow the upcoming Indian Budget 2025-26 (to be revealed on 1st february) and look out for the Defense expenditure. The planned reforms (in areas like R&D) will greatly benefit from and be strengthen by an increase in the defense budget.
So if the everything falls into place, we can see the military change its stance on projects like AMCA and expedite its development and induction. We can talk on and on about the upcoming future of Indian MIC and either hype it up as something marvelous and awe inspiring(Hypernationalists) or thrash, troll, discredit and joke about it (nearly every foreign opinion). The truth will be that in most cases, India will disappoint both the Optimists and Pessimists. Its foolish to say that AMCA will make India rival China or USA from day one or that it will be a Game changer superweapon which will guarantee an Indian triumph in any skirmish or war. It will be equally foolish to say that the AMCA will never happen, will be inducted in year 2100 (or) when the world will be flying 10th gen jets (or) that its joever for the Indian MIC (or) that we simply are a nation of retards who cant make anything.
The Indian military-industrial complex, like many other things in India, moves at a slow pace, hampered by inefficiencies and delays, but still makes gradual progress over time
I am sorry if my articulation of the above paragraphs is not upto the mark or confusing to understand. I am right now dealing with increased workload and as such i am short on time for leisure activities. I hope you guys understand.
Presently, the Cabinet Committee on security () has given the approval for the AMCA and has sanctioned 15000 crore (1.8 billion USD) with the roll out of the first prototype planned in three years (consider late 2028 or 2029) and the first flight in one to one and (a) half years after that (expected of course). Total 5 prototypes are to be built with the first three prototypes carrying out developmental flight trials, whereas the next two will focus on weapon trials. The prototype will be rolled out at an interval of 8-9 months. Mass production of the aircraft is planned to start by 2035 following Induction.
Prototype rollout will not be of my primary concern and I am kinda expecting that we will atleast see AMCA flying before December 2030. I say this because HAL can churn out a flyable prototype easily with this level of funding, ((as we have seen with Tejas (first flight 2001) and the above mentioned SARAS Mk1)) and that the previous timelines were very vague and manipulated by Media houses regularly.
The main widely known DELAY problem will lie with the testing, evaluation, trials, etc etc of the aircraft and the final clearance for its production. Our military is notorious for sometimes overevaluating the products it wants to purchase, especially if its , and will suggest changes at the last moment, test it again, suggest new changes, test ...... and so on. They just want a fully finished, matured and PROVEN platform from the start. I hope you get the point. This stage can easily take a decade if our Babus are given free will to do what they want.
Now, I would like to inform people that 2025 has been declared as the year of and we MAY see some reforms in the procurement and R&D strategy of our military along with the other reforms planned this year. Moreover, I would like to tell people to follow the upcoming Indian Budget 2025-26 (to be revealed on 1st february) and look out for the Defense expenditure. The planned reforms (in areas like R&D) will greatly benefit from and be strengthen by an increase in the defense budget.
So if the everything falls into place, we can see the military change its stance on projects like AMCA and expedite its development and induction. We can talk on and on about the upcoming future of Indian MIC and either hype it up as something marvelous and awe inspiring(Hypernationalists) or thrash, troll, discredit and joke about it (nearly every foreign opinion). The truth will be that in most cases, India will disappoint both the Optimists and Pessimists. Its foolish to say that AMCA will make India rival China or USA from day one or that it will be a Game changer superweapon which will guarantee an Indian triumph in any skirmish or war. It will be equally foolish to say that the AMCA will never happen, will be inducted in year 2100 (or) when the world will be flying 10th gen jets (or) that its joever for the Indian MIC (or) that we simply are a nation of retards who cant make anything.
The Indian military-industrial complex, like many other things in India, moves at a slow pace, hampered by inefficiencies and delays, but still makes gradual progress over time
I am sorry if my articulation of the above paragraphs is not upto the mark or confusing to understand. I am right now dealing with increased workload and as such i am short on time for leisure activities. I hope you guys understand.
A fair assessment
I'll look forward to see happens to the AMCA.Mind you, this forum is tracking the J-20, J-35 and their variants along with the two new tailless fighters from CAC and SAC as we speak. And that's just with new generation fighters.
Unless it gets beyond the PPT stage in the coming years, the only time it will be mentioned at SDF would probably, unfortunately, be as a joke or a counterpoint to more successful programs.
I wrote before how if India went all in on FGFA and asked for Russian help no matter what, like the Su-30 MKI, it would've been better. If you can't make alone, at least get help from 1 ecosystem that you know, learn everything and stick to it no matter what.
The problem with India is that it is basically a 3rd world country. Not in terms of poverty alone, but in mentality. In 3rd world countries, the military is basically a political prestige project where El Presidente orders the latest and greatest without regard for readiness, compatibility, etc.
Basically, these countries can't even buy right, let alone make right.
Simple examples would be Iraq, Egypt and formerly Pakistan. A mix of planes from Russia/US/France/China, all with incompatible munitions, no regard for readiness, doctrine and strategy.
Example of this disregard of readiness and doctrine: Egypt may have Rafaels, F-16s and Su-30s but they don't have a single BVR missile. So in reality they're unlikely to beat even Ethiopia without huge losses, which has Su-30s with R-77s.
Alternative history:
Imagine if India stuck to the Russian system since 2010. All the Rafale money for Su-57 with ToT and fully indigenizing Su-30 MKI. Tejas cancelled. All Tejas money for a JL-9 trainer equivalent, Kaveri based on HAL Al-31 and Uttam AESA instead. Eventually, Su-57 MKI.
By today, IAF would be flying 400+ Su-30 MKI with Uttam AESA and Astra missiles. It would be importing 24 Su-57s and assembling up to another 12 Su-57 MKIs. It would be phasing out Mig-21s for its version of JL-9 with proven domestic and Russian components rather than ending up with the Frankenstein hodge podge of LCA.
China would both worry about this India less and have more respect for this India. It would show both more competence, and more independence.
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You are the crowd you hang with pretty much.
I don't think it's necessarily too late for India or her indigenous projects. But she needs to hang around a better crowd. Being with losers that take forever to build something with insane pricetag (and unable to properly afford it) will make you a loser also. Except you're gonna be even worse because you don't even have the new money inheritance that the west flounders around with.
China left the door open for India every time despite also hitting them whenever the situation calls for it. I'm cautiously optimistic that India will be more than just a slave state designated to be passed around as a colony by different powers.
I think making something with Su-57 will happen. And it will be a gateway for India to come back home in the SCO/BRICS.
From interacting with Indians, many negative stereotypes are true, but a really good thing about Indians is that they are quite able to realize when they fucked up and then accordingly readjust everything they do until they excel. We malign the H1Bs a lot, but there's a reason the subcontinent is the H1B continent and not Africa. For example.
I don't think it's necessarily too late for India or her indigenous projects. But she needs to hang around a better crowd. Being with losers that take forever to build something with insane pricetag (and unable to properly afford it) will make you a loser also. Except you're gonna be even worse because you don't even have the new money inheritance that the west flounders around with.
China left the door open for India every time despite also hitting them whenever the situation calls for it. I'm cautiously optimistic that India will be more than just a slave state designated to be passed around as a colony by different powers.
I think making something with Su-57 will happen. And it will be a gateway for India to come back home in the SCO/BRICS.
From interacting with Indians, many negative stereotypes are true, but a really good thing about Indians is that they are quite able to realize when they fucked up and then accordingly readjust everything they do until they excel. We malign the H1Bs a lot, but there's a reason the subcontinent is the H1B continent and not Africa. For example.