Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Stealthflanker said:

The lack of political will to support their home grown program is frightening.

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GiantPanda said:

It might not be a lack of political will but a straightforward lack of resources and ability?

It takes a lot of political will to support programs like the Tejas and Kaveri decade after decade without giving up on them.

They just can't complete a jet fighter (even a light one) and a turbofan with the technical and industrial resources they have.

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The problem plaguing the LCA program is the same problem that plagues many, if not most Indian defense acquisition programs: corruption.

Not to say all or even most Indian officials are corrupt or even corruptible when given the opportunity, but there are nonetheless way too many leaders at just about every echelon looking to line their own pockets at India's expense.

As such, money spent tends to end up being money stolen, and little gets accomplished for every rupee expended.

Technically speaking, it's totally and completely possible for India to succeed at developing something comparable to the F-35 (I think they call it the AMCA?), but it just might be more expensive than the F-35 by an order of magnitude factoring in the requisite bribes, inevitable kickbacks, and some occasional outright embezzlement.

To be fair, Indians are a proud people, and given the legacy and history of their civilization, no one should be surprised or necessarily even offended by their nationalism.

Yet this is perhaps also why corruption involving the Indian military is especially ironic given that many of their visibly patriotic officers literally answer their phones with "Jai Hind!" as their greeting.

zyklon said:

Technically speaking, it's totally and completely possible for India to succeed at developing something comparable to the F-35 (I think they call it the AMCA?), but it just might be more expensive than the F-35 by an order of magnitude factoring in the requisite bribes, inevitable kickbacks, and some occasional outright embezzlement.

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I think it is technically impossible for them. At least not something they can mass produce domestically. They might be integrator of foreign parts like Tejas at most.

If it takes them 40 years to make a handful of light single fighters -- the least demanding frontline warplane you can design -- they won't be able to do a F-35.

The Tejas is basically one step above a trainer. In fact, I don't think they have a domestic jet trainer in service. They use British Hawks.

I remember them attempting an utility plane like the Y-12 but that never got produced.

If they cannot make and induct a turboprop utility aircraft, they won't be able make a F-35.

Corruption is just another issue but not the main one. The main one is the lack of an industrial and technical base.

Lethe said:

The contemporary statement by Air Chief Marshal A.P. Singh acknowledging that the LCA program dates to the mid-1980s is useful, as there are constituencies for excuse-making narratives that attempt to render LCA's glacial progress appear more respectable in part by simply erasing the earlier decades of its existence.

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Or by actually claiming that their Tejas is the safest fighter in the world that only had one total-loss crash in its 23 years of flight history.

Like, Tejas didn't even enter service until 2015, lmao.

GiantPanda said:

Corruption is just another issue but not the main one. The main one is the lack of an industrial and technical base.

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I don't think we necessarily disagree so much as focus on different facets of the problem set.

This is perhaps a chicken or egg situation where corruption needs to be reined in to a manageable degree before it will be possible to cultivate and develop, in any reasonable way, the requisite financial, industrial and technical foundations for an aviation megaproject.

zyklon said:

I don't think we necessarily disagree so much as focus on different facets of the problem set.

This is perhaps a chicken or egg situation where corruption needs to be reined in to a manageable degree before it will be possible to cultivate and develop, in any reasonable way, the requisite financial, industrial and technical foundations for an aviation megaproject.

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But then that's also a chicken or egg problem:

1. corruption needs to be reined in
2. to rein in corruption Modi needs to have high authority to carry out deep reforms
3. to gain authority Modi needs to present some sort of major win to his supporters
4. one way to gain a major win is to score a military victory, Pakistan isn't big enough of a target, it has to be China. Attacking China in 2020 around covid seems like a good idea
5. Can't beat China militarily because military is corrupt

Round and round it goes

Temstar said:

But then that's also a chicken or egg problem:

1. corruption needs to be reined in
2. to rein in corruption Modi needs to have high authority to carry out deep reforms
3. to gain authority Modi needs to present some sort of major win to his supporters
4. one way to gain a major win is to score a military victory, Pakistan isn't big enough of a target, it has to be China. Attacking China in 2020 around covid seems like a good idea
5. Can't beat China militarily because military is corrupt

Round and round it goes

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I have a couple of good friends who are Indians. Absolutely stand-up guys. So not in the business of mocking or dismissing India for shit and giggles.

However, the sad truth of the matter is, and you might have seen some variation of this before: India is the country of tomorrow and will always be the country of tomorrow.

Until major structural reforms occur -- which may not precipitate until something dramatic, if not painful happens to their current government, if not their existing system of government -- our Desi bhai bhai will likely remain less than satisfied with their domestic aviation industry.

zyklon said:

The problem plaguing the LCA program is the same problem that plagues many, if not most Indian defense acquisition programs: corruption.

Not to say all or even most Indian officials are corrupt or even corruptible when given the opportunity, but there are nonetheless way too many leaders at just about every echelon looking to line their own pockets at India's expense.

As such, money spent tends to end up being money stolen, and little gets accomplished for every rupee expended.

Technically speaking, it's totally and completely possible for India to succeed at developing something comparable to the F-35 (I think they call it the AMCA?), but it just might be more expensive than the F-35 by an order of magnitude factoring in the requisite bribes, inevitable kickbacks, and some occasional outright embezzlement.

To be fair, Indians are a proud people, and given the legacy and history of their civilization, no one should be surprised or necessarily even offended by their nationalism.

Yet this is perhaps also why corruption involving the Indian military is especially ironic given that many of their visibly patriotic officers literally answer their phones with "Jai Hind!" as their greeting.

Click to expand...

<phone rings>
"Jai Hind?"
"Jai Hind"
"Jai Hind!"
<hangs up>

Temstar said:

But then that's also a chicken or egg problem:

1. corruption needs to be reined in
2. to rein in corruption Modi needs to have high authority to carry out deep reforms
3. to gain authority Modi needs to present some sort of major win to his supporters
4. one way to gain a major win is to score a military victory, Pakistan isn't big enough of a target, it has to be China. Attacking China in 2020 around covid seems like a good idea
5. Can't beat China militarily because military is corrupt

Round and round it goes

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You know this whole discussion got me interested in their industry. I did some digging.

I think the whole corruption or that authority is needed to rein in corruption before any progress could be made is just an excuse for Indians to pretend they have all the talent, ability, etc., that they need if it weren't for this one thing.

I think it is more basic than this. India is simply not at that particular development level to build domestic. Not just 4th gen jets like Tejas but any aircraft.

This is the Saras:




It is a prop 19-seater under development since the 1980s like the Tejas. Basically analogous to the Y-12 which China developed and exported some quarter century ago.

It is a far simpler project but its outcome is actually worse than the Tejas -- never put into service and still being tested on to this very day.

What this tells me is India's aerospace industry cannot support the development and manufacture of even simple aircraft unless it gets full national treatment like the Tejas and gets national priority on funds and imports. Then maybe it can integrate foreign parts in a slow limited production schedule like the Tejas.

I think the truth is most countries don't have a viable aircraft industry and India is just one of those.

You guys are using Chinese logic to analyze Indian problems (in the Indian military), this is the wrong framework. From my observations, this is how Indians would approach this problem.

Step 1: Assign blame

It's all the (Bureaucrats/Socialists/Communists/Lower Castes/Muslims/Nehru/Modi/Pakistanis/Chinese/Russians/Americans) fault that the air force is like this.

Step 2: Try to remove the people who gets blamed

Step 3: Claim problem solved

Step 4: Rinse and Repeat

GiantPanda said:

You know this whole discussion got me interested in their industry. I did some digging.

I think the whole corruption or that authority is needed to rein in corruption before any progress could be made is just an excuse for Indians to pretend they have all the talent, ability, etc., that they need if it weren't for this one thing.

I think it is more basic than this. India is simply not at that particular development level to build domestic. Not just 4th gen jets like Tejas but any aircraft.

This is the Saras:

View attachment 143029


It is a prop 19-seater under development since the 1980s like the Tejas. Basically analogous to the Y-12 which China developed and exported some quarter century ago.

It is a far simpler project but its outcome is actually worse than the Tejas -- never put into service and still being tested on to this very day.

What this tells me is India's aerospace industry cannot support the development and manufacture of even simple aircraft unless it gets full national treatment like the Tejas and gets national priority on funds and imports. Then maybe it can integrate foreign parts in a slow limited production schedule like the Tejas.

I think the truth is most countries don't have this industry and India is just one of those.

Click to expand...

Their human capital is just not up to scratch, and cannot compete against a competent european country let alone China or East asia. All you need to compare is; at a given comparable level of development, what is the average person like, what is their work ethic, what are their morals.