Pakistan cannot afford the F-35. And Pakistan is still the largest non-NATO ally of the USA, it may not be as close as countries like Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Egypt. But Pakistan has served as a proxy for the USA and NATO in the past and could potentially become a closer ally to the USA in the future.
Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
- Start date
@didklmyself why did you laugh?
Tejas MK2 cockpit
Since you are funny, in fact a funny fan-boy and regardless all we discussed within the last weeks, you learned NOTHING!
You again pick up a random "news" - in fact old from 2023 - spin it into your theory as if all - and here the USA - supposedly admire India, woo it, make offers to strengthen it and build it up as a capable partner.
And once again you are overlooking reality and all your last posts show just how simple-minded Indian fan-boys are.
So let's take it one step at a time:
- The USA has not in the slightest "shown a keen interest in having India acquire the advanced F-35 fighter jet" and certainly is never "not only interested in selling the F-35 to India but also in integrating India into the F-35 global supply chain." In fact integrating India into this system or even more giving India a strong own responsibility would be a huge risk to "the F-35 global supply chain". As such, just dream on.
- In fact all the USA want is to contain China and sell weapons. And if you can achieve two things at once so easily, then all the better, because while all the Indian fans are jumping around excitedly and rejoicing, like you, they don't realise that the basic condition will be, as with Turkey, to throw out everything Russian first, create a purely western ecosystem and only then any F-35s come into consideration.
- To believe that you have a unique selling point, especially compared to Pakistan, is simply naive. The USA will never deliver F-35s to Pakistan; as such boasting around this is like claiming India is special since the USA won't deliver them to me.
- In essence to round it up: everyone - in this case the USA - is fully aware that India is so easy to manipulate, and that it will take forever for India to make a decision and even then it will certainly be questioned & revoked several times and thus take even longer with the result that the matter can be allowed to cool down or heated up as required, India will stand in its own way and in the end you can still say that you are not delivering because even in 20 years India will not have said goodbye to all Russian systems.
And if they are actually ready to deliver at some point, the costs will have exploded so much in the meantime that India will start to question everything again. India has only shot itself in the foot again, replacing old dependencies with new, even more expensive ones, losing endless time and gaining nothing, especially not the ability to do anything itself. And the tragic thing is that everyone - the USA, France, Great Britain, Israel or whoever - is using India as a cash cow that is milked at will, but none of you sees that since you are all so much impressed that the USA has "shown a keen interest in having India acquire the advanced F-35 fighter jet".
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I really don’t understand the Indians insistence on quoting “facts” that is nothing more than speculation… ie fact sheets of Tejas MK1a and MK2 when reality hasn’t demonstrated the capability yet. Anyway that’s not really important.
What is important and I will reiterate what was said a few years ago, that is, the issue India has was never whether it has or WILL have said capability, or whether they have the capability to design or for that matter build the fancy weapons they claim.
The problem was and still is that they don’t focus on the industrial base to support the fancy weapons they want. Let’s take the Tejas as a perfect example, rather than design and redesign and redesign some more for good measure, they should have accepted the first iteration of the MK1 regardless of how insufficient they believed it to be. Build up the industrial base for serial production, all the while reiterate on the initial design for upgrades, since the initial Tejas MK1 would already be far more capable than most of their current old inventory anyway, it also serves as a stop gap regarding the rebuilding of the lack of number in the IAF.
By the time the upgrades are ready and a new variant is tested and validated, there would have been a ready made production line waiting for the new parts and all that’s left would be optimisation of the manufacturing process and integrating with the new parts. After that would be replacing the old fighters at pace. It also helps to keep much more of the necessary investment in India itself.
But no instead we get wet day dreams in the form of articles or “fact” sheets being quoted ad nauseam while little to nothing is actually done, by this I mean in terms of actually manufacturing a product.
If we are going to talk about what WILL happen then I reckon “soon” in the future China WILL produce a fighter that is capable of flying directly into space, while carrying 1000 tons of ordnance, able to not only survive reentry at the steepest of angles but remain combat ready, drop directly into the heart of the enemy territory and bombard any target of choice. And for good measure it WILL also be able to transform into a humanoid robot along with a semi transformed mode, half jet and half robot, carrying a 40mm cannon like a machine gun. So there we have it, as the fact sheet states, China wins and obviously has the best fighter to have ever fightered. GG Thank you for playing.
What is important and I will reiterate what was said a few years ago, that is, the issue India has was never whether it has or WILL have said capability, or whether they have the capability to design or for that matter build the fancy weapons they claim.
The problem was and still is that they don’t focus on the industrial base to support the fancy weapons they want. Let’s take the Tejas as a perfect example, rather than design and redesign and redesign some more for good measure, they should have accepted the first iteration of the MK1 regardless of how insufficient they believed it to be. Build up the industrial base for serial production, all the while reiterate on the initial design for upgrades, since the initial Tejas MK1 would already be far more capable than most of their current old inventory anyway, it also serves as a stop gap regarding the rebuilding of the lack of number in the IAF.
By the time the upgrades are ready and a new variant is tested and validated, there would have been a ready made production line waiting for the new parts and all that’s left would be optimisation of the manufacturing process and integrating with the new parts. After that would be replacing the old fighters at pace. It also helps to keep much more of the necessary investment in India itself.
But no instead we get wet day dreams in the form of articles or “fact” sheets being quoted ad nauseam while little to nothing is actually done, by this I mean in terms of actually manufacturing a product.
If we are going to talk about what WILL happen then I reckon “soon” in the future China WILL produce a fighter that is capable of flying directly into space, while carrying 1000 tons of ordnance, able to not only survive reentry at the steepest of angles but remain combat ready, drop directly into the heart of the enemy territory and bombard any target of choice. And for good measure it WILL also be able to transform into a humanoid robot along with a semi transformed mode, half jet and half robot, carrying a 40mm cannon like a machine gun. So there we have it, as the fact sheet states, China wins and obviously has the best fighter to have ever fightered. GG Thank you for playing.
DRDO and GTRE to Integrate Dry Kaveri Engine Derivative into LCA-Tejas Trainer Aircraft
In a significant development, Dr. Samir V. Kamat, Secretary of Defence Research and Development (DD R&D) and Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has announced plans to integrate a Dry Kaveri engine derivative into the LCA-Tejas Trainer aircraft. This integration will serve as a crucial step in advancing India's indigenous engine technology, though it is not intended as a replacement for the existing F-404 engines in operational fighter jets.
In a significant development, Dr. Samir V. Kamat, Secretary of Defence Research and Development (DD R&D) and Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has announced plans to integrate a Dry Kaveri engine derivative into the LCA-Tejas Trainer aircraft. This integration will serve as a crucial step in advancing India's indigenous engine technology, though it is not intended as a replacement for the existing F-404 engines in operational fighter jets.
Hahaha, why are you blaming me for the statement made by a serving IAF official explaining why India is not willing to accept the US offer to buy the F-35? The news article I quoted above is based on a statement made by a serving IAF official. Criticize the IAF officials if you think you know the requirements and options of the Indian Air Force better than the serving IAF officials themeselves.
You mean the Pakistan that is buying Chinese military equipment in bulk? That Pakistan? Are we sure that USA will sell their prized stealth fighter to the country that seems to be the largest importer of Chinese military equipment? I think not.
I think the reality of why India will not purchase USA F-35s is not because of USA refusing to sell to an enemy of their valued ally Pakistan, but instead because India is not a country that can afford F-35, nor a country capable of maintaining F-35 if purchased.
Regarding this "[integration of] India into the F-35 global supply chain", perhaps we should see if India can mass serial-produce a functioning 4th-generation fighter (HAL Tejas) without 20+ year program delays before we ask India to take on a part of the F-35 program.
In the 2008 MMRCA Competition, the USA made a similar offer to India with the F-16, proposing a redesigned version named the F-21. However, after evaluation, the Indian Air Force deemed the F-16 an obsolete fighter jet and instead shortlisted the 6-7 times more expensive Rafales and Eurofighter Typhoons.
This isn't the first time the USA has tried to sell its fighter jets with attractive offers, such as shifting the production line to India, only for India to reject them.
And F-35 is not expensive; Israel bought them for $85 million per unit, whereas the India-specific Rafales cost $300 million each. Even the Indian-made Tejas MK1A costs $79 million each.
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I will concede the point that USA has tried to sell fighter aircraft to India before. This information however does not necessarily suggest that USA is willing to sell F-35 to India, or to bring India into the global supply chain of F-35 production.
I will bring up some new points. The paper you link suggests that "close-in air combat manoeuvring" was the key deciding factor in the choice of Rafale over F-16. Is this marginally superior close-range maneuvering in a single Rafale worth 6-7 F-16s (per your cited prices)? If it is not, what can justify such an astronomical price tag? I maintain that the argument that USA will not permit usage of purchased aircraft against Pakistan is absurd: once again I must point out that Pakistan is one of the largest purchasers of Chinese weapons. I question the decision-making competency of the Indian Air Force.
I also ask this: seeing that India seems to struggle very much with production (HAL Tejas), and if I recall correctly has attempted to have the French manufacture Rafales in India, why did India reject the offer of USA shifting F-16 production line to India? Would India not benefit greatly from manufacturing experience gained? I must again question the decision-making competency of the Indian Air Force.
In any case, you do not address two of my key points: the suggestion that India may be brought into the global supply chain of the F-35 is absurd given India's own history with aircraft development and construction, and that India is most likely incapable of maintaining a fleet of 350 F-35s (a number you suggest in an earlier post) given India's own history with aircraft maintenance and airframe lifespan.