Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

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Jason_

Junior Member
Registered Member
You need to understand that outside India, very few people take the claims of the Indian military and the Indian MIC seriously. The reason is that from a historical perspective, a great many of these claims were later contradicted by reality.

Relatedly, I do not think you understand some basic principles of physics or are familiar with trends of military engineering. As a result, you advance some claims that are, to put it mildly, very unlikely to be true.
 
Deino

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Pataliputra said:
You mean HAL should design the fighter jet first and decide on the specifications later?
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No, but HAL at first has to prove them or at least build something you already rate a fact (like Tejas Mk.2 and Brahmos-NG) and you should read them properly. Not even HAL claims the Tejas Mk.2 can carry 8 AAMs and 2 Brahmos-NG and if they do, then it is clear as hell BS.



Pataliputra said:
If, after watching several videos and seeing pictures of the Tejas MK1A, you're still calling it a mythical weapon, then you would likely deny its existence even after all 183 units have been delivered to the IAF.
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Ok, that‘s enough!

I know you from pages of BS here, also from the same BS and more being spread at other forums and you had a clear warning after several kind reminders!

You know exactly why he meant with his reply and therefore a very clear and strict warning! STOP this back & forth, this hyping of plans as if …

Therefore 4 weeks vacation from SDF for repeated posting of propaganda and what-if-dreams, several replies in bad faith and arguing with a moderator after a warning!

You really should reconsider either your style and content or if thsi forum is the right place for you.
End of the debate!!
 
I

Index

Junior Member
Registered Member
valysre said:
You mean the Pakistan that is buying Chinese military equipment in bulk? That Pakistan? Are we sure that USA will sell their prized stealth fighter to the country that seems to be the largest importer of Chinese military equipment? I think not.

I think the reality of why India will not purchase USA F-35s is not because of USA refusing to sell to an enemy of their valued ally Pakistan, but instead because India is not a country that can afford F-35, nor a country capable of maintaining F-35 if purchased.

Regarding this "[integration of] India into the F-35 global supply chain", perhaps we should see if India can mass serial-produce a functioning 4th-generation fighter (HAL Tejas) without 20+ year program delays before we ask India to take on a part of the F-35 program.
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Oh they can afford F-35s alright. They wasted more money than F-35 on many things way less capable than F-35s.

Maintaining them is another issue. 5th gens aren't easy to maintain, requiring some level of local technological infrastructure and timely capabilities. Logistics isn't India's strong front.

But another major reason US won't sell them is because of the humiliation of having their best platforms serving side by side with Russian equipment, being being very likely semi-freely accessed by Russian trained/Russian technicians and so on. By selling F-35 to India, they would show that they're truly desparate and will sell to anyone, even buyers of poor repute.

America is not that desparate to sell, especially because F-35s for India are no gamechanger, India still lacks the means to defend its home airspace if it heads into a conflict with China. You need a whole network of systems to successfully hold against an advanced adversary.
 
V

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
India was sanctioned by US (arms sanctions) not that long ago. Modi himself was.
So not exactly unprecedented.
Among the west, only french weapons weren't affected.

Doesn't make the price less ridiculous (making rafales affordable more as a political rather than fleet asset), of course.

On the other hand, completely discounting them as military also isn't right - they're forming linchpin of Indian air capability right now. And they're a big capability still, way more(overall) than f-16 could've provided.
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I believe that the MMRCA competition referenced predates a number of recent US sanctions. I will however concede that India had been sanctioned in the past and may not have had fond memories of the experience. However, from what Paliputra said, F-16 was offered by US with quite enticing deals, such as moving of supply chains. Sanctions, at least with this specific deal in the moment, were not relevant.

I do not discount India as a military. I only question the decision-making of the top brass. I must again point out: if Paliputra was correct and US offered movement of F-16 production line to India, it was an incredibly idiotic decision to turn it down. Especially after we have seen the mess that is India's inductment schedule of Rafales, and the attempts to have France move Rafale production lines to India. Of course, they do say that hindsight is 20-20.

In any case, I do not believe the capabilities provided by the Rafale justify the enormous markup of 500-600% over an F-16. Although, chances are that if India had chosen the F-16, it would have ended up just as expensive due to strange and extraneous demands.
 
P

pevade

Junior Member
Registered Member
Deino said:
Therefore 4 weeks vacation from SDF for repeated posting of propaganda and what-if-dreams, several replies in bad faith and arguing with a moderator after a warning!

You really should reconsider either your style and content or if thsi forum is the right place for you.
End of the debate!!
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Why did you cut off my source of endless amusement?
The only reason I'm even following the Indian Defense subforum is because of his hilarious claims.
 
M

Mt1701d

Junior Member
Registered Member
valysre said:
I believe that the MMRCA competition referenced predates a number of recent US sanctions. I will however concede that India had been sanctioned in the past and may not have had fond memories of the experience. However, from what Paliputra said, F-16 was offered by US with quite enticing deals, such as moving of supply chains. Sanctions, at least with this specific deal in the moment, were not relevant.

I do not discount India as a military. I only question the decision-making of the top brass. I must again point out: if Paliputra was correct and US offered movement of F-16 production line to India, it was an incredibly idiotic decision to turn it down. Especially after we have seen the mess that is India's inductment schedule of Rafales, and the attempts to have France move Rafale production lines to India. Of course, they do say that hindsight is 20-20.

In any case, I do not believe the capabilities provided by the Rafale justify the enormous markup of 500-600% over an F-16. Although, chances are that if India had chosen the F-16, it would have ended up just as expensive due to strange and extraneous demands.
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With regards to the F16 deal I reckon it’s probably something similar what happened to the Rafale deal, where they were trying to get the French to take on the liability of any failure but at the same time the manufacturing must be handled by an Indian partner. Also if I remember correctly there would be only limited tech transfer, but don’t quote me on this. Furthermore, I would suspect that the supply chain would only be with regards to non-sensitive parts and/or equipment, I don’t remember if there was any actual clarification given regarding this point.

Finally with all American equipment there will be many many strings attached, unlike the F21 proposal where it was basically dedicated to India as market alone.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
valysre said:
I do not discount India as a military. I only question the decision-making of the top brass. I must again point out: if Paliputra was correct and US offered movement of F-16 production line to India, it was an incredibly idiotic decision to turn it down. Especially after we have seen the mess that is India's inductment schedule of Rafales, and the attempts to have France move Rafale production lines to India. Of course, they do say that hindsight is 20-20.
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(1)F-16 isn't exactly fresh weapon system. It's a half-a-century-old design.
(2)F-16 is a weapon system in use by Pakistan, well and thoroughly understood by the opponent.
(3)India clearly looked for a medium platform.

Turning this particular one down was absolutely the right thing to do.

valysre said:
In any case, I do not believe the capabilities provided by the Rafale justify the enormous markup of 500-600% over an F-16. Although, chances are that if India had chosen the F-16, it would have ended up just as expensive due to strange and extraneous demands.
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The final F-16 price, given the conditions, would be quite high, too.
Not Rafale-level high, but deal includes a lot of additional stuff beyond the fighter itself.
 
V

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
Gloire_bb said:
(1)F-16 isn't exactly fresh weapon system. It's a half-a-century-old design.
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I can't speak to the rest of your points, I am not fully informed, and they seem reasonable enough to me, but I must point out that the Rafale is no spring chicken either. It's technological demonstrator first flew in 1986, only 12 years after the F-16's flight in 1974. I don't think age is of much concern here, it's not as if India was going to purchase the F-16 as it was first produced in 1978.
 
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