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Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
I can't speak to the rest of your points, I am not fully informed, and they seem reasonable enough to me, but I must point out that the Rafale is no spring chicken either. It's technological demonstrator first flew in 1986, only 12 years after the F-16's flight in 1974. I don't think age is of much concern here, it's not as if India was going to purchase the F-16 as it was first produced in 1978.
Rafale A(demonstrator) isn't Rafale. Rafale is a 1990s bird.

But Rafale A was indeed a composite demonstrator, and Rafale is a post-80(I. e. post all fbw/super maneuverability studies). It is a big tech package.

It's a massive, generational difference; with exception of stealth, it's a 5th gen tech package basically (especially important because stealth is enabled by modern fbw).

In tech sense it's a very big deal.

Plus Rafale gave better and more important capability to IAF here and now, after the 2019 emergency.
 

TheFuture_NoMore

New Member
Registered Member
The US is desperate to contain China, but not yet desperate enough to sell the F-35 to India. I think they will eventually push for the sale just a matter of when. I can see the scenario playing out similarly with Tejas and Rafale where the AMCA struggles in development and India procures F-35s late.

I don't think Pakistan is a major ally of the US anymore. The US would never sell the F-35 to Pakistan. I only see Indians using that talking point.

Agree - the Americans dont treat Pakistan as an actual ally - more of a hired lacky for occassional projects it seems. Pakistan does seem happy to fulfill that role aswell though.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Agree - the Americans dont treat Pakistan as an actual ally - more of a hired lacky for occassional projects it seems. Pakistan does seem happy to fulfill that role aswell though.
As long as the former colonies doesn't fought for its independence thru violent revolution, nothing will change as the old oligarch elites remains and are an extension of the former colonizers. You mention Pakistan, the same can be seen here in the Philippine, the western press proclaim the 1986 EDSA peoples power as a perfect example of a peaceful transfer of power thru democratic means ( in layman terms Colored Revolution) , I think the same happen with Benazir Bhutto (same template a Heroine (always a woman) battling against evil and Yellow color as their shields, it never gets old) but what it really entails is exchanging one family (Marcos) to another (Aquino) with the American picking which one to govern.
 
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Lethe

Captain
In the 2008 MMRCA Competition, the USA made a similar offer to India with the F-16, proposing a redesigned version named the F-21. However, after evaluation, the Indian Air Force deemed the F-16 an obsolete fighter jet and instead shortlisted the 6-7 times more expensive Rafales and Eurofighter Typhoons.
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This isn't the first time the USA has tried to sell its fighter jets with attractive offers, such as shifting the production line to India, only for India to reject them.
I will concede the point that USA has tried to sell fighter aircraft to India before. This information however does not necessarily suggest that USA is willing to sell F-35 to India, or to bring India into the global supply chain of F-35 production.

I will bring up some new points. The paper you link suggests that "close-in air combat manoeuvring" was the key deciding factor in the choice of Rafale over F-16. Is this marginally superior close-range maneuvering in a single Rafale worth 6-7 F-16s (per your cited prices)? If it is not, what can justify such an astronomical price tag? I maintain that the argument that USA will not permit usage of purchased aircraft against Pakistan is absurd: once again I must point out that Pakistan is one of the largest purchasers of Chinese weapons. I question the decision-making competency of the Indian Air Force.

I also ask this: seeing that India seems to struggle very much with production (HAL Tejas), and if I recall correctly has attempted to have the French manufacture Rafales in India, why did India reject the offer of USA shifting F-16 production line to India? Would India not benefit greatly from manufacturing experience gained? I must again question the decision-making competency of the Indian Air Force.

Tellis on MMRCA! This brings back memories.

Tellis is of Indian descent but embedded within the American establishment as a voice on the Indo-US relationship. Prior to the down-select from the initial six contenders to two, Tellis had argued that MMRCA was a political acquisition program and hence that the American contenders would sail through, because signing an American aircraft for the largest defence acquisition program in India's history was to be the lynchpin heralding a new Indo-US strategic partnership. That didn't happen: F-16, F/A-18E/F, MiG-35 and Gripen were all cut in the first round of operational testing, leaving Rafale and Typhoon to proceed to commercial evaluation. A lot of very important folks in Washington were invested in this idea of a burgeoning Indo-US strategic partnership and were most distressed by India having dismissed both American tenders so cavalierly, not even permitting them to save face by allowing one contender to advance to the next round. So at this point (i.e. in the linked article) Tellis changes his mind: the MMRCA selection is now of no political significance whatsoever, rather the Indians were overly process-bound and indeed stupid: too stupid to know that fighters cost real money and that this should actually be considered from the outset, too stupid to know what even counts as performance in the modern combat environment, too stupid to consider the benefits of aligning with the greatest nation the world has ever seen. It's not Washington's fault that the Indians are so stupid, Tellis reassures his American readers. Keep in mind that the evaluation process that Tellis decries here was public knowledge at the time. In previous works he was happy to consider political angles when he thought those were favourable to Washington (thereby implicitly acknowledging that the formal process is not necessarily the real or only process), but when the result turned out not to favour Washington he decided that politics was irrelevant, rather than admit that India was sending a message that was not what Washington wanted to hear.

My thesis is that Tellis was right the first time: MMRCA was a political/strategic acquisition program and that's why the Americans didn't win. Because contrary to what folks in Washington wanted to believe, India had not forgotten the sanctions that had been imposed upon them a decade earlier, affecting the LCA and other aerospace programs. India also had no intent of being drawn into the American web of alliances, particularly its War on Terror, as Washington so clearly desired. By failing to select an American aircraft for MMRCA (and simultaneously refusing to sign "interoperability" agreements such as CISMOA) New Delhi was communicating to Washington exactly what kind of relationship it did and did not envision with the United States going forward. Washington had thought that arranging for a Nuclear Suppliers Group waiver for India was an act of great generosity that would be reciprocated by a grateful nation, whereas India saw that merely as correcting a previously unjust state of affairs. And over time, Washington has indeed come to temper its expectations about India, such that Tellis has more recently been penning articles for Foreign Affairs such as
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.

Rafale won the MMRCA tender because France was the best strategic partner for India. Having a particular result in mind, it is a simple matter to craft an evaluation process that leads inexorably to the desired outcome. You exclude value-for-money at the initial stage. You place a premium on instantaneous turn rate and transonic acceleration. You ask for combinations of range and payload that the smaller Gripen can't meet. You deny Lockheed Martin the opportunity to retry a failed engine changeout procedure. You penalise the American engines as developmental while not penalising European radars as such. You don't even pretend to take the Russian submission seriously, because wanting a non-Russian aircraft (and a non-Russian technology pipeline) is why MMRCA exists in the first place. And having whittled the field down to two and progressed to the commercial evaluation phase, you declare Rafale as L1 because you haven't forgotten that Germany and the UK signed on the American sanctions regime as well.

Of course it is perfectly reasonable to point out that this was all highly questionable from the perspective of getting needed capabilities into service at an acceptable cost in an acceptable timeframe. Political considerations aside, F-16 would probably have been the correct choice for the IAF at that particular juncture. But there is no such thing as an apolitical Tier 1 military acquisition program.
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes, except Pakistan operates two generations of F-16s with just that much more experience with the fighter than IAF can build up to match and exceed... and the Rafale is objectively superior to the F-16 in pretty much all known domains of combat performance.

Politics aside, India's choice of Rafale over the others was the correct choice if only performance was assessed. Possibly EF2000 but the Captor/CAESA AESA wasn't quite as ready as the RBE AESA if I recall correctly.

France is also a better and more reliable strategic partner to pick all things considered. India may not have a great appetite to deliver on being a total sepoy nation like Japan. After all, while some Indian elites might have cultural and family ties to the Anglo world but in their heart of hearts, there isn't absolute foolishness to believe in all the kind words and gestures. Modi is a better Indian leader from China's pov than many alternatives. It's just a dangerous thing to allow an unprecedented level of grandiosity and nationalism to be nurtured the way Modi is. Dangerous for India and China. Still the upside of that is Indians looking at the West with more realism than nations like S.Korea and Japan.
 

Lethe

Captain
Yes, except Pakistan operates two generations of F-16s with just that much more experience with the fighter than IAF can build up to match and exceed... and the Rafale is objectively superior to the F-16 in pretty much all known domains of combat performance.

Sure, Rafale is a superior aircraft, but MMRCA died on cost grounds and the IAF inventory has suffered greatly as a result. The program was for 126 aircraft, with the possibility of further extensions, but more than 12 years after selecting Rafale the IAF has received only 36 aircraft with future acquisition plans still up in the air. Particularly in the context of the LCA program woes that were unfolding simultaneously, the IAF did not need top-end performance, it needed airframes. Elevating value-for-money to prime consideration, plausible candidates at the time were F-16, Gripen and MiG-35. MiG-35 failed the basic strategic criterion in that it is a Russian aircraft and therefore does nothing to address IAF's over-reliance on Russian hardware, technology, and industrial relationships. SAAB's Gripen proposal required significant development work (as did MiG-35) in turn increasing risks for schedule and cost. Indeed, the first Gripen Es were only delivered to Brazil and Swedish air forces in 2022, though it's possible that an Indian order may have accelerated the development program somewhat. F-16 was a mature, single-engine design, integrated with modern technologies, with a mature production line at Fort Worth that would've been eager to accept new orders while India's own facilities got up to speed, with Lockheed Martin having had considerable prior experience outsourcing F-16 production.

Politics aside, India's choice of Rafale over the others was the correct choice if only performance was assessed. Possibly EF2000 but the Captor/CAESA AESA wasn't quite as ready as the RBE AESA if I recall correctly.
France is also a better and more reliable strategic partner to pick all things considered.

France is a great strategic-industrial partner for India, with a fairly comprehensive suite of products and technologies with relatively few external entanglements (contrast with Sweden's Gripen ultimately being subject to approval from Washington). Also, France is small enough that it can't really push India around, while the prospect of India funding French development projects is attractive enough in the context of the cost of those projects and limited French resources and export market opportunities, to give India considerable bargaining power. It's a mutually beneficial relationship that will undoubtedly continue going forward. If India had gone all-in on Mirage 2000 in the 1980s with domestic production, or accepted Dassault's offer to transfer the production line to India in the early-2000s, then the IAF would today be in a much better place than it is.
 
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phrozenflame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agree - the Americans dont treat Pakistan as an actual ally - more of a hired lacky for occassional projects it seems. Pakistan does seem happy to fulfill that role aswell though.
Those projects end up not going entirely as Americans wish, for some reason.

Anyway, its also pretty much what they're trying to do with India, trying to set it up as a meat shield against China. Personally, I think India will keep playing the 'concerned by China' card to attract investment and tech but will pull the 'sit in the middle' act like they did with Russia when things go hot. I dont think anyone outside Japan is willing to be a crater in this match.
 

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
Those projects end up not going entirely as Americans wish, for some reason.

Anyway, its also pretty much what they're trying to do with India, trying to set it up as a meat shield against China. Personally, I think India will keep playing the 'concerned by China' card to attract investment and tech but will pull the 'sit in the middle' act like they did with Russia when things go hot. I dont think anyone outside Japan is willing to be a crater in this match.
Off-topic, but I am pretty sure Japan is only really willing to be a crater in this match because of the ~50,000 US troops in Japan.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Off-topic, but I am pretty sure Japan is only really willing to be a crater in this match because of the ~50,000 US troops in Japan.
if there would be will - 50'000 troops are but a grain in a sea.
Japan was forced into this after losing ww2 - maybe, but for many, many decades they're willing to be in this position.
There was a moment when they could decide to actually take their own fate into their hands (Plaza)- they didn't. That means that benefits of being a 2nd tier junior partner outweigh it.

India is a different case - it's an actual actor with discrete self-interest and self-awareness. It may be anti-Chinese and West-aligned - yes, but there is no rule that any self-interest must be only pro-China.
 
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