Indian Air-Force News

Indianfighter

Junior Member
The question raised by you (tphuang) was that since Russia supplied 26 kits, how did HAL assemble more Su-30 MKIs. This question was asked after my statement of, "There was a thread started earlier about the escalation of cost in the indigenous assembly of the Su-30 MKI. The decision to source the remaining 100 Su-30 MKI aircraft from Russia directly is the consequence of that outcome."

The response given by me was that Russia has supplied fully-built Su-30s in the past also, (and that HAL has manufactured atleast 1 Su-30 MKI, when you juxtaposed the terms "produced" and "assembly"). This explains the balance of 18 jets out of a total of 40-44 Su-30 MKIs in the IAF.

tphuang said:
18 su-30 directly produced and assembled in Russia.26 kits delivered to India for assemble.
The above statement is accurate.
Some of it may not be complete kits (allowing HAL to incorporate indigenenous components), so that's a maximum of 26 HAL assembled MKIs. What's so confusing about that?
If I am not mistaken, the original question as posed by you was about the balance jets (when I first mentioned about the "'remaining 100 Su-30 MKIs'" when I quoted the news report posted by you). That question, I believe has been answered.

I have acknowledged the assembly of 26, and only 26 Su-30 MKIs by HAL in the post where I expressed the balance as : 26kits+24 fully-built jets, which I corrected later to 26kits+18 fully-built jets in response to a query by ajaybhutani.

Thus, HAL has assembled 26 Su-30 MKIs by kits that were provided by Russia, and has sourced 18 Su-30 Mks directly. These 18 jets have also been upgraded by HAL to MKI standard.

Anyway, I have not comprehended the persistence in knowing about the number of assembled jets when it is known that HAL can manufacture Su-30 MKIs.
 
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tphuang

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Indianfighter said:
The question raised by you (tphuang) was that since Russia supplied 26 kits, how did HAL assemble more Su-30 MKIs. This question was asked after my statement of, "There was a thread started earlier about the escalation of cost in the indigenous assembly of the Su-30 MKI. The decision to source the remaining 100 Su-30 MKI aircraft from Russia directly is the consequence of that outcome."

The response given by me was that Russia has supplied fully-built Su-30s in the past also, (and that HAL has manufactured atleast 1 Su-30 MKI, when you juxtaposed the terms "produced" and "assembly"). This explains the balance of 18 jets out of a total of 40-44 Su-30 MKIs in the IAF.


The above statement is accurate.

If I am not mistaken, the original question as posed by you was about the balance jets (when I first mentioned about the "'remaining 100 Su-30 MKIs'" when I quoted the news report posted by you). That question, I believe has been answered.

I have acknowledged the assembly of 26, and only 26 Su-30 MKIs by HAL in the post where I expressed the balance as : 26kits+24 fully-built jets, which I corrected later to 26kits+18 fully-built jets in response to a query by ajaybhutani.

Thus, HAL has assembled 26 Su-30 MKIs by kits that were provided by Russia, and has sourced 18 Su-30 Mks directly. These 18 jets have also been upgraded by HAL to MKI standard.

Anyway, I have not comprehended the persistence in knowing about the number of assembled jets when it is known that HAL can manufacture Su-30 MKIs.

alright, interpret what I said as much as you want,
this is my original wording
"looks like there have been no more than 26 Indian assembled MKI so far."
I asked no questions, just an observation.
 

Indra

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NEW DELHI: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) cannot be faulted for at least one thing: thinking big. Despite frequent technical glitches and time and cost-overruns in its missile programme, it's going ahead with development work on the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile 'Astra'.

BVR missiles are fired by fighter jets to destroy enemy aircraft at ranges beyond 40 km. They are urgently needed these days since BVR combat, as compared to dogfights or WVR (within visual range) combat, has become the norm in modern-day aerial warfare.

Being a complex system, only a few countries like US, Russia, France and Israel have managed to develop BVR missiles. IAF's frontline fighters like Sukhoi-30 MKIs and Mirage-2000s, for instance, are armed with expensive BVR missiles of French and Russian origin like the "Matra Super 530D" and "AA-12 Adder".

DRDO is not deterred by all this. Holding that the "systems design, aerodynamic configuration design etc of various sub-systems" of Astra have now been completed, DRDO plans to soon conduct "controlled flights" of the missile "from under-slung ground launchers".

The DRDO, incidentally, had conducted test-firing of three primitive Astra prototypes from the Chandipur-on-Sea interim test range in May 2003. But nothing much was heard after it. On March 31, 2004, the government approved the Rs 1,000-crore project to develop Astra, with a 80-km "head-on range".
 

FreeAsia2000

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NEW DELHI: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) cannot be faulted for at least one thing: thinking big. Despite frequent technical glitches and time and cost-overruns in its missile programme, it's going ahead with development work on the beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile 'Astra'.

BVR missiles are fired by fighter jets to destroy enemy aircraft at ranges beyond 40 km. They are urgently needed these days since BVR combat, as compared to dogfights or WVR (within visual range) combat, has become the norm in modern-day aerial warfare.

Being a complex system, only a few countries like US, Russia, France and Israel have managed to develop BVR missiles. IAF's frontline fighters like Sukhoi-30 MKIs and Mirage-2000s, for instance, are armed with expensive BVR missiles of French and Russian origin like the "Matra Super 530D" and "AA-12 Adder".

DRDO is not deterred by all this. Holding that the "systems design, aerodynamic configuration design etc of various sub-systems" of Astra have now been completed, DRDO plans to soon conduct "controlled flights" of the missile "from under-slung ground launchers".

The DRDO, incidentally, had conducted test-firing of three primitive Astra prototypes from the Chandipur-on-Sea interim test range in May 2003. But nothing much was heard after it. On March 31, 2004, the government approved the Rs 1,000-crore project to develop Astra, with a 80-km "head-on range".

I'm not sure about all this BVR business. I posted an article about how the USAF was convinced missiles would do away with close in dog-fighting prior to the Vietnam and then changed their minds during the Vietnam war.
 

Muffhead

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Indian Fighter Jet purchase

(first post, folks, please don't beat me up)

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An Interim Fighter: The F-16 and other options
Amit Gupta

The Indian Air Force has short listed four planes for its Interim Fighter purchase—the Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, Grippen and, surprisingly, the F-16. There are several issues that need to be understood before determining what would be a viable purchase that satisfies the air force’s needs.

First, interim purchases are a thing of the past. India’s last ‘interim’ purchases were the Iskra trainer, bought to fill a gap in training aircraft, and the MiG-23. Given the high costs of acquiring aircraft, such purchases are a thing of the past. Any aircraft purchased by the air force will be in service for at least two decades. So any procurement will have to take into consideration how the plane fits into the air force’s long-term force structure and evolving air power doctrine. Additionally, the purchase may have to reflect India’s greater strategy of developing economic and political ties with other countries.

Second, the assumption that India can have an interim fighter is based on the belief that the Indian arms industry will be able to provide a viable alternative in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Tejas has been marked by developmental delays, the lack of an indigenous engine, and now concerns about successfully integrating modern weapons with the plane’s avionics. If the Tejas is unlikely to see induction into service until the end of the decade, and that too in low production numbers, then it will not be able to fill the gap that is being created by the phasing out of the MiG-21s. Further, it is not clear whether the air force will be willing to accept the plane to fill the gaps in its force structure. Instead the Tejas could be turned down by the Indian Air Force as being unable to meet the changing threat environment.

Third, the next generations of fighter aircraft that are being built around the world are too expensive for most countries including India to procure in large numbers. The U.S. F-22 has a flyaway price of about $117 million and the U.S. Air Force will purchase approximately 180 planes. Israel, which would have been a ready customer for an advanced U.S. fighter plane has already stated that the F-22 is too expensive to be purchased by the Israeli Air Force. Other next generation aircraft—like the French Rafale and the Typhoon Eurofighter, are similarly too expensive. As a consequence, the interim fighter purchase has to be one that provides a solid, reliable platform that can be modernized in mid-life with next generation avionics and weaponry thus making it a viable weapon for an advanced combat environment.

Fourth, a weapons purchase can and should also reflect India’s political and strategic interests. Weapons procurement can open up political ties and help cement a country’s strategic interests. For India, which has started to build a new military-strategic relationship with the United States, this may be one consideration in procuring a new weapons system.

Making the choice

Given these factors it is easy to rule out two planes—the Gripen and the MiG-29. The MiG-29 has a poor maintenance record and the erstwhile MiG bureau has had few successes in selling the airplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Its maintenance record and the poor quality of construction, in fact, led the German air force to scrap the MiG-29s it inherited from the East German air force.

The Gripen is too expensive and has an American engine. Having said that, the plane has been sold to the Swedish, South African, Hungarian, and Czech air forces thus giving the program a market viability and ensuring a fairly steady supply of spares. But the aircraft would require a lengthy period of time to be integrated into the Indian Air Force’s force structure. Politically, purchasing the Gripen does little to enhance India’s global partnerships.

The Mirage 2000 would seem to be the ideal candidate since it has been in service with the Indian Air Force for two decades and performed admirably during the Kargil conflict. For an IAF that is trying to rationalize its force structure by reducing the types of airplanes in its inventory, a large number of Mirages make sense. In terms of maintenance, integration into the force, and pilot familiarity, the plane also fits well into the Indian Air Force’s long term plans.

Which leaves the F-16. The F-16 block 60 has an impressive avionics suite, a proven combat record, and, its proponents contend, is 30% cheaper than the Mirage. Co-production has been carried out in a nonwestern country-Turkey- and Istanbul was allowed to export the plane to Egypt. For India, an F-16 purchase has some positive military and political possibilities.

Militarily, it offers a plane that is comparable to the Mirage 2000 and will allow the Indian Air Force to move into flying and maintaining American aircraft and familiarizing itself with the sales and corporate practices of U.S. defense firms. This would allow India, if it chose, to move seamlessly to a next generation aircraft from the United States—especially the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) which is cheaper and better suited for Indian military interests (the Marine Corps jump jet version of the JSF would be especially suitable for the Indian Navy’s carrier aviation efforts).

Politically, an Indian F-16 production line could well be the test for the validity of the Next Steps in the Strategic Partnership (NSSP) technology transfer effort between the United States and India. If the U.S. is to be a credible supplier of high technology to India the transfer of the F-16 production line becomes an important test case about the sincerity of American intentions. From an Indian perspective, the transfer of the production line, with no restrictions on third party transfers and full access to technology, shows that the United States is sincere about making India into a strategic partner. It also removes lingering Indian doubts about the United States’s value as a guaranteed supplier of weaponry.

From an American perspective, the F-16 could well become the Volkswagen Beetle of fighter aircraft. Brazil had a Beetle production line and continued to build the car well after assembly was stopped in Europe. The F-16 could become the Beetle as cash strapped nations continue to buy the Indian version since it would be a low cost but agile and proven platform that fulfills their airpower requirements.

It will be interesting to see, therefore, if the U.S. and India can work out a mutually beneficial arrangement on this issue.

I have a few questions about this large bid.

1.Why aren't any chinese fighters on the list for consideration? Do they not have a good price to performance ratio?

2. Why would the Mig-29 be on the list considering the amount of maintence these airframes tend to require?

3. Is the F-16 on the list mainly because buying from the USA would give india some politcal capital with the USA or the F-16 still a pretty good airframe compared to newer aircraft?

4. The Grippen... I can find only very little information on it. But from what I have seen it seems like the best aircraft on the list. Any and all information on it and how it sticks up the the competition would be greatley apreciated.
 

tphuang

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Re: Indian aircraft purchase.

(first post, folks, please don't beat me up)

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I have a few questions about this large bid.

1.Why aren't any chinese fighters on the list for consideration? Do they not have a good price to performance ratio?

2. Why would the Mig-29 be on the list considering the amount of maintence these airframes tend to require?

3. Is the F-16 on the list mainly because buying from the USA would give india some politcal capital with the USA or the F-16 still a pretty good airframe compared to newer aircraft?

4. The Grippen... I can find only very little information on it. But from what I have seen it seems like the best aircraft on the list. Any and all information on it and how it sticks up the the competition would be greatley apreciated.

1) Indians don't have much respect for Chinese things in general and combat aircraft is no exception. Besides, which plane can China offer to India?

2) Indians have already operated Mig29s for a long long time, that's why.

3) F-16 is still a capable airframe, but it's offered because LM certainly can't offer F-22/35 to India

4) Gripen? It has no range, not good for a country like India.
 

Muffhead

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Re: Indian Fighter Jet purchase

Don't the chinese have a J-10 for export? I thought the Indians would want to move away from the Mig Platform because of the amount of work they require and the amount of times they have been crashed because of mechanical problems. Also, I wonder if the F-16's being offered are the later blocks with all of the goodies they come with. In regards to Gripen, it still on the list for consideration, so its combat range can't be too large of an issue for them.
 

Spike

Banned Idiot
Re: Indian Fighter Jet purchase

Don't the chinese have a J-10 for export? I thought the Indians would want to move away from the Mig Platform because of the amount of work they require and the amount of times they have been crashed because of mechanical problems. Also, I wonder if the F-16's being offered are the later blocks with all of the goodies they come with. In regards to Gripen, it still on the list for consideration, so its combat range can't be too large of an issue for them.
It would sure annoy the Pakistanis greatly if the Chinese were to export a superior fighter to India while they were still cooperating with Pakistan on the JF-17. Also, the Indians view China as a potential rival and therefore probably wouldn't buy the plane because the Chinese could cut off the supply of spare parts and such at any time.
 

adeptitus

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Re: Indian Fighter Jet purchase

India was actually offered more aircraft types, such as the F/A-18E/F. But there's a cost consideration.

From the articles I've read, the Indian AF prefers the Mirage-2000. France has said that it'd shut down the Mirage-2000 assembly line if India doesn't make an offer soon. IMO if that's the plane the Indian AF wants, then let them have it. Pay France to license-produce/assemble the Mirage-2000 in India.

If I were to put myself in India's shoes, I wouldn't buy the F-16. Although it's a very good and capable aircraft, it also comes with American sanctions and export restrictions. Suppose if India buys 126 F-16's, then want to conduct a nuclear test. The US government would cut off weapons export to India for 8-10 years.

The EU might impose similiar sanctions, but France is more likely to export a large stockpile of parts and munitions, and allow you to license produce parts locally. The US won't even allow you to modify the weapon system's source code.
 

joey

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Re: Indian Fighter Jet purchase

Don't the chinese have a J-10 for export? I thought the Indians would want to move away from the Mig Platform because of the amount of work they require and the amount of times they have been crashed because of mechanical problems. Also, I wonder if the F-16's being offered are the later blocks with all of the goodies they come with. In regards to Gripen, it still on the list for consideration, so its combat range can't be too large of an issue for them.

LOL J10 for India? with Sd 10 "having russian seeker" and using Russian engines? is'nt it more feasible to have something from the russians directly then?
use common sense...india has far better fighters on offer than J10 like tphuang said what does china has to ofeer to india..in aircraft now.

the only thing india-china can work on what i see is on a Space station...as both are not involved in international space station IIRC.
 
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