Indian Air-Force News

Article on upgraded M88-4E engine in 2010:

Winner of MMRCA shall be announced today

Just rumors for now but:

While nothing is clear just yet, sources suggest that it's going to be tight: while it will take a few weeks to arrive at a common denomination (also currency conversions apparently -- one of the bids had values in at least three currencies), sources indicate that the apparent difference between the two offers is thin, not as much as had been widely predicted (India's Mint business daily quotes a source with "direct knowledge of the matter" that Dassault's bid was "marginally lower" on unit cost compared to Eurofighter's). There is, however, no official clarity on the bids, and there is unlikely to be any before a lowest bidder is made known next month. The MoD will presumably announce the lowest bidder officially.

Clearly, it's also a time ripe for reading into everything. The Pioneer newspaper suggests that a meeting between the Indian Prime Minister and French President in Cannes on the sidelines of the ongoing G20 summit, inexplicably cancelled at the last minute, suggested that France had lost the competition.

no offense but the HAL tejas is probably one of the biggest joke apart from the arjun mbt. It no longer meets Indias requirement as a main battle plane, maybe its more suitable as a trainer. the hal tejas is too small and too light, limiting its ability to carry advanced weaponary and especially advanced electronics, including radar. apart from the size, its overall aero design is very primitive, not even as advanced as the f16 designed in the 70s. this plane should be like a practice piece for the indian aero industry instead of a mass produced weapon. the program had dragged on for more than 30 plus years, its directors and high up officials should know better. if the indians end up fielding this plane on a large scale, it would be like the chinese filelding the FC-1 in 2010 and keep using it until 2030, or fielding j20 after 2025, which defeats its original purpose. warplanes for major nations are like electronic products, it always change quickly, CPUs more than 2 years old cant even be found on shelves anymore. warplanes are the same thing. after 30 years of dragging and lagging, its time for the indian to abandon this platform for move onto something for meaningful.

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Tejas is as light as JF-17 and Gripen the MK2 will be heavier. Is the Gripen to light or was it built that way specifically? BTW electronics get smaller, the Gripen NG has very prudent and modern avonics and your right the design is simple just because it doesn't have canards or extra control surfaces? It doesn't require them. The Naval Tejas has levecons if thats your thing.
And your right, warplanes change like electronics. But electronics change more than warplanes or fighter aircraft. Avonics are constantly upgraded over the time of the airframes life. BTW the PLAAF plans to field those J-10's past 2030.

Well it will probably come down to who is willing to work closest with HAL to transfer the most technology and possibly production to the Indian aviation industry. Between the Rafale and the Typhoon, its a tough call. I heard that the Eurofighter consortium is offering India to become a full partner and get a slice of any future sales of the Eurofighter abroad and to be involved with production of any future Eurofighters for export as well. What is Dassault offering? It must be something substantial to be able to compete with the openness Eurofighter is offering.

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Dassault is already in the game or rather france is. Samtel and Thales have join venture of license production of Top Owl HMS used in Tejas, Su-30MKI and Mig-29K. It;ll also make its way onto the Mirage2000 upgrades and Mig-29SMT. Samtel is also marketing the same IRST on Rafale for Tejas MK2. Snecma is collaborating with GTRE on Kaveri 2 to power future varients of Tejas and AMACA. The machines to produce these blades will be acquired from ToT of F414. Apperantly the same tools used to manufacture Al-31 engines inhouse can not be used on Kaveri or M88 engines.

Personally, I think the Typhoon stands a better chance.

Given the size of the order, an entire assembly line can be set up in India to manufacture the aircraft. For Typhoon, being given full partner status lowers that barriers for a production line in India. Afterall, each of the full partners have their own production lines already.

The Typhoon also offers the advantage of the experience from many different countries since it is quite a successful export aircraft. This will make it easier for inter-operability issues between different militaries.

Being given full partnership in the Typhoon program is likely to benefit India's aerospace industry in the long run as well, since it means access to cutting edge European aerospace technologies.

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The only ToT HAL is looking forward to is AESA radars. ToT isn't always useful expecially when domestication will cost more than procuring something abroad.

That s a big surprise. I would have seen the F-18 and the Rafale selected.

Back to the Rafale case, it is actually a really capable multirole aircraft that has a great package of assets, great avionics and excellent maneuverability. The Rafale is my favorite as it is the best package of the 2 final contenders, ideal for the MMRCA (real ToT, great payload, great range, great avionics, decent cost and a promising future of upgrades, AESA radar being put into production now, fully operable as a navy aircraft).

You seem very optimistic with the Typhoon, but I am not sure that India can get the same ToT with lot of foreign partners (some maybe reluctant with large ToT), given the fact that s it s now a key point in this contest! Keep also in mind that the plane must be mainly produced by Indian companies. Another thing, the Typhoon cost more due to these numerous costly european partnerships. The plane is also clearly behindhand in term of developement's Tranches and multirole capabilities. That s why I m so surprised to see this one here instead of the F-18...

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The Rafale at times is said to be the inferior platform in terms of specs. But it actually is the only operation swingrole aircraft the West has, the other being the Su-30MKI but thats because of the 2 seat configuration. We've seen their recent success. While the Typhoon also markets itself as a swingrole or mult-role aircraft it has yet to be operationalized as such ie performing both air to air mission as well as air to ground in the same sortie.

There have been open remarks that the US aircraft were in the competition that long due to political pressure, not because the aircraft fits India's requirements.

As for Rafale vs Typhoon, Typhoon has newer technology and all full partners have full access to all the technology of the aircraft. This is public news. Nothing secret about it.

Now, is the French going to offer full access to Rafale's technology? If so, than Rafale's chances improve. But since it is an older design, I don't think it stands as good a chance because India wants the latest technology so that it can help to advance their own aerospace industry. On that count alone, the Typhoon is the best option.

Also, will Dassault allow India to build an assembly for Rafale in India as part of the package? If not, than it will clearly lose the bid. Being a full partner of Typhoon means that an assembly line for Typhoon can be built in India. There are already 1 Typhoon assembly line in each of the full partner countries of the program (Germany, UK, Italy and Spain). As for Rafale, there is currently no other assembly line other than the 1 in France.

More importantly, which bid India picks will depend on which bid better meets its requirements, not which bid it likes (or is their favourite).

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The French don't need to offer full ToT. Remember Rafale is built thanks to various companies working together. They just need to bid low. In the end, it will be political decision. Dassault has offered India the option of powering future varients of the Rafale and Tejas with Kaveri 2 engines which is very similar in performance to an uprated m88.

I think Indian is really nervous of Chinese development in Naval, Airforce and Army technology, perhaps J-20 progress make them really nervous to death.

India can't make anything, all (or most) advanced weapon system are imported from all over the place, I can't imagine the nightmare of logistic and training for so many different systems, and the worst part is all made and designed by someone else. I don't think India would have 100% liberty to use the weapon systems, especially if it comes from western countries. Let's try to attack Israel, all system imported from the USA would be simply useless

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the Indian media overhypes the China threat sometimes more so than the US media. But the Indian military is not too concerned. Their posture has not changed nore has Beijings. Majority of India's fleet is stationed towards Pakistan not towards China. The Indian Navy's Eastern fleet has some of the worst equipment the navy has. While the Western fleet aimed at Pakistan has the air craft carrier and will receive a knew one anytime soon. If you look at the pace of Indian development, they seem to be more concerned with doing it right and cost effectively rather than wasting money. They are looking for the most potent weapons systems at the most reasonable price that meets their demand. And who exactly is to tell India when to use its weapons systems? Just because China sold missiles to Pakistan doesn't mean Pakistan won't bomb India or even China if it comes down to it. Its the embargo that hurt. China and Pakistan know that all to well. And even if the PLAAF have J-20 right now or 10 years down the road, India still has very potent weapons systems and the FGFA aka T-50 is in the works as we speak.

The rafale, Eurofighter or even Su-30MKI are unrelated to J-20. At the most, you could contend that India is "nervous to death" about J10B or JF-17.

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India has taken into account stealth aircraft long before the J-20. Ever since the arrival of F-22's and B-2s India and Russia have realized the importance of stealth aircraft. Hence the development of T-50.

Hmmm..... I have a problem with your "logic". Yes, if one is nervous about J-20, he can find a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane. That's one way to go. However, he can also try to find a way to upgrade his own fighters in the best possible way, so that the gap between his fighters and J-20 is as small as possible. This, I think, is more logical. This is why China and Russia have been trying to develop the 5th gen fighters once the US had F-22. They may also be developing a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane, but narrowing the gap between themselves and the US by modernizing their own fighter fleet is another way to do it. It's possible that India may feel that it is less probable for them to develop a 5th gen fighter on their own in the near future. So they join the PAK-TA program and at the same time try their best to beef up their current fighter fleet. This is the most logical way to do things, instead of trying to develop a suitable radar that can detect a 5th gen plane This is much more difficult to do than upgrading their fighters since this kind of radar is still in very early stage of development in the US. Hoping to have this kind of radar to match up against China's J-20 is simply not realistic.

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There are many ways to go about to detect stealth aircraft. Using low frequency radars like the ones apperantly planned for the T-50 or IRST/FLIR. But stealth is not just weapon to be used against fighter aircraft but rather radars, ground based air defense systems. That is the biggest fear. But who knows what will happen, AFAIK multi directional radars and such are being looked.

On the issue of Inida getting new fighters, I think it's simply natural for any nation to have the best weapon systems they can get their hands on. If Indian can get all those cool fighters to beef up their AF, why not? It's not so much that they are nervous about J-20 or any other single fighters, but about getting the best possible systems they can afford. IT's just so happened that the two events coincides. The world only found out about J-20 a few months ago. Making a decision about upgrading fighters takes much longer than a few months. It's absolute possible that Indians started thinking about the fighter upgrades way before they knew anything about J-20.

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Staying ahead of the trend is a good idea though.

The US was offering India "Super F-16s" not too long ago, good enough to count as Gen 4.5's. From what I understand, a big part of why India wasn't interested is what y'all are getting at here: India pretty much wants all of its big defense deals to involve under-license, in-India construction and technology transfer. The main difference between India and China as far as this goes these days is that China simply reverse-engineers, copies and steals most of what it gets its hands on. India does it the legal way. The result is that while Russia and Israel are less eager to do business with the Chinese these days, everyone wants to sell to the Indians.

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theres only so much one can reverse engineer. The J-11 is product of license production as is the Su-30MKI. But there is also another reason why the Russians don't want to sell China its latest weapons. It could be used against them.

Personally, I think the Rafale has better chance. Not because its a better aircraft in terms of specs, but its more reasonable and cost effective for the above mentioned reasons. At the end of the day. The decision will be political.