Indian Air-Force News

Depends what re the needs of the customers. Like the Typhoon, many things are still in development also for the Rafale and the Gripen, then I don t think it s the key in the MMRCA for now.

About the radar, the one used on french AF Rafale fleet is not the latest version of it, and not as good as the Typhoon. However, the new RBE2 AA/AESA gives the Rafale a clear advantage. A new version has been evaluated by Switzerland AF first, a few years ago. They were impressed.

Spartan95 said:

Why do you think the Indians are offered full partnership? It's another source of funding for further development. Unless the Indian Air Force expect to get it for free.

As for which is more advanced, the Typhoon is the 1st military aircraft with Direct Voice Input (DVI). This is a capability that is in development for the Rafale. The Typhoon also claims to have a lower Radar Cross Section as compared to the Rafale (about half of the Rafale's). That's just 2 examples where the Typhoon is more advanced than the Rafale.

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I think Indian is really nervous of Chinese development in Naval, Airforce and Army technology, perhaps J-20 progress make them really nervous to death.

India can't make anything, all (or most) advanced weapon system are imported from all over the place, I can't imagine the nightmare of logistic and training for so many different systems, and the worst part is all made and designed by someone else. I don't think India would have 100% liberty to use the weapon systems, especially if it comes from western countries. Let's try to attack Israel, all system imported from the USA would be simply useless

antiterror13 said:

I think Indian is really nervous of Chinese development in Naval, Airforce and Army technology, perhaps J-20 progress make them really nervous to death.

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Well, no body can stop you from thinking so.

But J-20 is supposed to be 5th gen. If someone were "nervous to death" about J-20, I'd recommend looking for a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane.

If you see a flu epidemic coming, better to go for a flu shot .... rather than stockpiling malaria tablets.

The rafale, Eurofighter or even Su-30MKI are unrelated to J-20. At the most, you could contend that India is "nervous to death" about J10B or JF-17.

That would sound atleast a bit more logical .... and make your argument more sensible.

bingo said:

Well, no body can stop you from thinking so.

But J-20 is supposed to be 5th gen. If someone were "nervous to death" about J-20, I'd recommend looking for a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane.

If you see a flu epidemic coming, better to go for a flu shot .... rather than stockpiling malaria tablets.

The rafale, Eurofighter or even Su-30MKI are unrelated to J-20. At the most, you could contend that India is "nervous to death" about J10B or JF-17.

That would sound atleast a bit more logical .... and make your argument more sensible.

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Hmmm..... I have a problem with your "logic". Yes, if one is nervous about J-20, he can find a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane. That's one way to go. However, he can also try to find a way to upgrade his own fighters in the best possible way, so that the gap between his fighters and J-20 is as small as possible. This, I think, is more logical. This is why China and Russia have been trying to develop the 5th gen fighters once the US had F-22. They may also be developing a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane, but narrowing the gap between themselves and the US by modernizing their own fighter fleet is another way to do it. It's possible that India may feel that it is less probable for them to develop a 5th gen fighter on their own in the near future. So they join the PAK-TA program and at the same time try their best to beef up their current fighter fleet. This is the most logical way to do things, instead of trying to develop a suitable radar that can detect a 5th gen plane This is much more difficult to do than upgrading their fighters since this kind of radar is still in very early stage of development in the US. Hoping to have this kind of radar to match up against China's J-20 is simply not realistic.

There are multiple ways to do things when one is nervous about something. You can get a flu shot when you are nervous about the flu, but you can also take more vitamin pills and exercise more to beef up your own immune system. I think what India is doing is more equivalent to exercising more and trying to beef up their immune system.

On the issue of Inida getting new fighters, I think it's simply natural for any nation to have the best weapon systems they can get their hands on. If Indian can get all those cool fighters to beef up their AF, why not? It's not so much that they are nervous about J-20 or any other single fighters, but about getting the best possible systems they can afford. IT's just so happened that the two events coincides. The world only found out about J-20 a few months ago. Making a decision about upgrading fighters takes much longer than a few months. It's absolute possible that Indians started thinking about the fighter upgrades way before they knew anything about J-20.

vesicles said:

Hmmm..... I have a problem with your "logic". Yes, if one is nervous about J-20, he can find a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane. That's one way to go. However, he can also try to find a way to upgrade his own fighters in the best possible way, so that the gap between his fighters and J-20 is as small as possible. This, I think, is more logical. This is why China and Russia have been trying to develop the 5th gen fighters once the US had F-22. They may also be developing a suitable radar which can detect a 5th gen plane, but narrowing the gap between themselves and the US by modernizing their own fighter fleet is another way to do it. It's possible that India may feel that it is less probable for them to develop a 5th gen fighter on their own in the near future. So they join the PAK-TA program and at the same time try their best to beef up their current fighter fleet. This is the most logical way to do things, instead of trying to develop a suitable radar that can detect a 5th gen plane This is much more difficult to do than upgrading their fighters since this kind of radar is still in very early stage of development in the US. Hoping to have this kind of radar to match up against China's J-20 is simply not realistic.

There are multiple ways to do things when one is nervous about something. You can get a flu shot when you are nervous about the flu, but you can also take more vitamin pills and exercise more to beef up your own immune system. I think what India is doing is more equivalent to exercising more and trying to beef up their immune system.

On the issue of Inida getting new fighters, I think it's simply natural for any nation to have the best weapon systems they can get their hands on. If Indian can get all those cool fighters to beef up their AF, why not? It's not so much that they are nervous about J-20 or any other single fighters, but about getting the best possible systems they can afford. IT's just so happened that the two events coincides. The world only found out about J-20 a few months ago. Making a decision about upgrading fighters takes much longer than a few months. It's absolute possible that Indians started thinking about the fighter upgrades way before they knew anything about J-20.

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Oh.. yeah. This sounds fine.

(a bit lengthy, though ).

Cheers.

Aero_Wing_32 said:

Depends what re the needs of the customers. Like the Typhoon, many things are still in development also for the Rafale and the Gripen, then I don t think it s the key in the MMRCA for now.

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Depends on what they see is the development potential of the Typhoon and what comes with being a full partner.

From what I understand in the early development of the Typhoon, being a full partner means being able to demand the Typhoon meets certain requirements. Of course this comes with development costs to meet that requirement. And this is 1 of the reasons for the lengthy development of the Typhoon.

At this stage in time, if India is offered full partner in developing a naval version of the Typhoon (with full IP rights and profits from further export orders), it would certainly make a compelling case. India's domestic aerospace industry will get to tap Europe's expertise in such a development, thus jump-starting their own expertise in naval aircraft development.

What can Rafale offer that comes close to such an enticing development?

The US was " not too long ago, good enough to count as Gen 4.5's. From what I understand, a big part of why India wasn't interested is what y'all are getting at here: India pretty much wants all of its big defense deals to involve under-license, in-India construction and technology transfer. The main difference between India and China as far as this goes these days is that China simply reverse-engineers, copies and steals most of what it gets its hands on. India does it the legal way. The result is that while Russia and Israel are less eager to do business with the Chinese these days, everyone wants to sell to the Indians.

johnboy said:

The US was

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" not too long ago, good enough to count as Gen 4.5's. From what I understand, a big part of why India wasn't interested is what y'all are getting at here: India pretty much wants all of its big defense deals to involve under-license, in-India construction and technology transfer. The main difference between India and China as far as this goes these days is that China simply reverse-engineers, copies and steals most of what it gets its hands on. India does it the legal way. The result is that while Russia and Israel are less eager to do business with the Chinese these days, everyone wants to sell to the Indians.

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I don't know why forummers like it so much to explain every action of India with reference to China.
(and sometimes vice-versa).

And in reality, nothing is farther from truth.

China chooses to "reverse-engineer" .... so what?

And India doesn't choose to do it ... so what?

Each way of doing things has it's pros and cons ..... naturally.



Reverse-engineering can be quite a costly affair ..... many people think reverse engineering is cheap.
Total wrong.

On the positive side, a working model can give the assurance that a design with certain things can be made to work (although, it may inhibit drastically new innovative designs).

India is also able to reverse engineer pharmaceuticals with an econonically viable investment.

Reverse-engineering an aircraft engine may not be cost-effective. Better to design from scratch.

Lastly, for reverse engineering you don't need a working model in hand ..... only that a working model in hand makes it easier and greater design depth can be explored.

But photographs of a working model could be a first input into reverse engineering. So, China already has photos of F-16, Rafale or Eurofighter.

It is entirely China's choice if it wants to reverse-engineer Rafale, "using" the publicly available information (and whether such an exercise will be cost-effective). Or to simply built a new design (as per air staff requirements).

More that reverse-engineering b.s., there are probably other reasons why Europe does not sell to China.

And all this has no bearing on what India does, or how Europe deals with India.

Just occurred to me to take a look at the engines powering the final 2 contenders.

Typhoon is powered by 2 EJ200 turbofan engines. The pamphlet for the engine states that it has a dry thrust of 13,500 lb and 20,000 lb with after-burners:



Rafale is powered by 2 Snecma M88-2 engines. The pamphlet for the engine states that it has a dry thrust 11,250 lb and 17,000 lb with after-burners:



From the pamphlet, it can be seen that the EJ200 is the more powerful engine.

In addition, there is a thrust vectoring variant for the EJ200 that is currently under development:

Spartan95 said:

Just occurred to me to take a look at the engines powering the final 2 contenders.

Typhoon is powered by 2 EJ200 turbofan engines. The pamphlet for the engine states that it has a dry thrust of 13,500 lb and 20,000 lb with after-burners:

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Rafale is powered by 2 Snecma M88-2 engines. The pamphlet for the engine states that it has a dry thrust 11,250 lb and 17,000 lb with after-burners:

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From the pamphlet, it can be seen that the EJ200 is the more powerful engine.

In addition, there is a thrust vectoring variant for the EJ200 that is currently under development:

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Depends the engine version for the Rafale. Besides, the french bird is lighter.