How did China change in Culture, from Imperial era to today.

solarz

Brigadier
Chinese culture will be more and more influential abroad... but probably not the kind of culture that you guys are thinking of.

Confucianism? Traditional arts? Too boring for young people. Remember, if you want to spread your culture, start with the young, they're more likely to embrace new stuff.

The Chinese movie industry has tried making in roads with Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Zhang Yimou. While they weren't failures, they were not spectacularly successful either. The progress is definitely there (ex: the Kung Fu Kid movie with Jackie Chan and Jaden Smith), but it's definitely slow going.

What I see as a faster vector is through the millions of overseas students. A significant portion of those students will be staying overseas after their studies, and they will be bringing their cultural preferences to their friends, which could include ethnic Chinese who grew up overseas, their SO, and their eventual children. Already, we have huge Chinese communities that are inviting famous artists from Mainland to perform here. So I think the expansion of Chinese culture will be done through the overseas Chinese community.

Here's a question, if you are not ethnic Chinese, what has made you interested enough to join a forum about Chinese military? After all, this forum itself is an example of cultural expansion.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
The Chinese movie industry has tried making in roads with Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Zhang Yimou. While they weren't failures, they were not spectacularly successful either. The progress is definitely there (ex: the Kung Fu Kid movie with Jackie Chan and Jaden Smith), but it's definitely slow going.

There are excellent movies and production in Chinese cinema scene.
I wouldn't categorize it as slow, because there is much to learn, not in the acting/actor/director part, but industrial know hows
the acting talent and raw material is surely there

.

What you say is really moot and is a generalization.

The thing is, you have already found inherently Chinese cultural influences as international norm. From civil examination systems to paper money.

The reality is that a lot of westerners know how to use chopsticks, what they use normally doesn't matter. You seem to disregard that Chinese people have been using forks and spoons from antiquity as well; I hardly see it as an western influence.

Bruce Lee is one man, but he represent the surge of eastern martial arts in the eyes of westerners. Which western movie with close combat after bruce lee does not have close combat involving kungfu / fancy martial arts?

Suits.. doesn't mean much, it is not a purely western innovation, but for all intent and purpose, it is just an accepted business norm to wear suits. Just like international trade is generally done in USD -> like all ships having a rudder does not mean that they are following Chinese designs.


so why does Hu or Wen not start wearing something different? say Mao suits for a change? They still wear that on certain domestic occasions. Why not 'promote' Chinese culture in say G-20 meeting with a Mao suit?

chopsticks or not, Western cultural influence on the global world is deep and entrenched among nations and other cultures, even superseding local ones, we have not seen such from Chinese cultures, at least not at the same level

when you look at the greater sphere of traditional Chinese influence (Korea and Japan) that's where the chopsticks prevail
the tradition of giving out HungPaos however seems to spread really well in my country :)
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
.



[/COLOR]
LOL, just a side note thou, isn't custer's last stance showing White American losing to Native American? aka American vs American hence Americans did not really win or lose?


hmmmmmmm there is always " The Alamo" With a group of American militia taking on the Spanish. or Pear Harbour. Plus theres a few classic anti war movies, the ultimate message being there are no winners in war.eg "On the Beach" "The Dear Hunter". "Apocalypse"


When we talk about Asian music being exported to the West, Surely in the main its only directed towards people of Asian heritage. In the main Asian pop music has yet to gel, with caucasian audiences.

Also remember when the "Beatles" went all Indian culture like in their music, how long did that last?

Going back to the architecture thing, I think the reason why Japanese influenced western architecture broke through in America is not only due to Western trained Japanese architects, but the number of caucasians that were stationed in Japan and taking back with them, aspects of Japanese culture they liked.

China in turn must have an increasing number of long stay caucasians who may in turn do the same thing. It remains to be seen if it comes in the form architecture as it seems to me at this stage anyway that they are busily copying the West.
 
Last edited:

kyanges

Junior Member
so why does Hu or Wen not start wearing something different? say Mao suits for a change? They still wear that on certain domestic occasions. Why not 'promote' Chinese culture in say G-20 meeting with a Mao suit?

chopsticks or not, Western cultural influence on the global world is deep and entrenched among nations and other cultures, even superseding local ones, we have not seen such from Chinese cultures, at least not at the same level

when you look at the greater sphere of traditional Chinese influence (Korea and Japan) that's where the chopsticks prevail
the tradition of giving out HungPaos however seems to spread really well in my country :)


Chopsticks and traditional clothing are all sort of superficial examples of culture. It doesn't matter so much that someone is wearing a Mao suit if no one knows or cares about what that Mao suit represents.

Fundamental cultural shifts are the kind where things like values change, not just their outward appearance. That's why I see events like the spread of Christianity in China as being far more invasive, if not outright destructive of Chinese culture than anything else like jeans or forks/knives. Christianity literally encourages abandoning existing value systems in favor of one derived from the supposed word of their God. That's a fundamental shift in culture.

Wearing t-shirts and jeans spread because it's practical and livable. I'd be super surprised if the Chinese ever moved away from that sort of dress. Because from what I've seen, the Chinese are some of the most practical and pragmatic people out there. I see the famous phrase from Deng Xiaoping about not caring about what color the cat is so long as it catches mice as one of those sayings that just screams, "Chinese."

(Another reason why suddenly abandoning Humanist values in favor of Christian ones is so worrying to me. Rather than approaching issues with the practical mindset of what's here and now, issues are approached through a fatalistic and abstract ideology.)
 
Last edited:

montyp165

Senior Member
(Another reason why suddenly abandoning Humanist values in favor of Christian ones is so worrying to me. Rather than approaching issues with the practical mindset of what's here and now, issues are approached through a fatalistic and abstract ideology.)

Religious propagation tends to occur most heavily with the least educated and simplistic minded, whereas the more intelligent and educated a person is humanist values are much more the norm. In this area Chinese humanism coinciding with secular humanism in the west and other places can only be a good thing to counter religious fundies.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
There are excellent movies and production in Chinese cinema scene.
I wouldn't categorize it as slow, because there is much to learn, not in the acting/actor/director part, but industrial know hows
the acting talent and raw material is surely there



so why does Hu or Wen not start wearing something different? say Mao suits for a change? They still wear that on certain domestic occasions. Why not 'promote' Chinese culture in say G-20 meeting with a Mao suit?

chopsticks or not, Western cultural influence on the global world is deep and entrenched among nations and other cultures, even superseding local ones, we have not seen such from Chinese cultures, at least not at the same level

when you look at the greater sphere of traditional Chinese influence (Korea and Japan) that's where the chopsticks prevail
the tradition of giving out HungPaos however seems to spread really well in my country :)

so do APEC count?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I really find it retarded to define what is western influence or not. To me it is simple, there are mainly Greco-Roman, Sino, Egyptians, Persian, base cultural influences. Whatever you call western is derived from these.

Chinese cultural impacts?
Paper money
Soybean food? soy milk, soy hot dogs
Martial arts
civil examination systems
civil law
Tea consumption
Acupuncture
Herbal Remedy - shared with other ancient cultures
Factory assembly line (yes the Qin had factory assembly lines)
Mechanized industrial production
Urban planing
Sewage systems - water pipelines already in the Shang dynasty
the list goes on.
 

kyanges

Junior Member
I read that the idea of what constitutes as "western" has also changed over time. As recently as WW1, the Germans were labeled as an "Eastern" menace.

About that list, just because the Chinese developed something first doesn't mean it's an impact. Even if they were developed again at a later date, but without direct inspiration from the Chinese predecessor, then it's not really a Chinese impact. It would be an independent development. For example the Chinese might have made paper money first, but did everyone else just copy that, or did they get to that solution themselves?

It can be difficult to determine whether or not the originator was inspired, or if they really just came up with the same solution to a common problem.
 

Kurt

Junior Member
"Xiao San" = 小三

Yes, mistresses exist everywhere in the world, but the alarming sign from China is how widespread it is. Anybody who owns a semi-successful business, or holds a mildly important government post, would more likely than not to have a mistress.


I want to try to combine these issues, economy, technology and polygamy/monogamy:
Mistresses/concubines/numbered wifes/harem reflect only official legal arrangements of polygamy.

Polygamy can pay off for the mistress if there's a huge wealth gap between the shared wealth she can achieve as second wife in comparison to a monogamous first wife arrangement with a partner available to her (status, wealth, education, beauty). Otherwise polygamy, especially if widespread, is from an economic perspective a worse trade than monogamy, at least for all but the first wife (if she has an official dominance role). The reason for uneconomic mistress choices can be love or quick gains, but status of men eligible also plays a very important role.
In Tunisia for example the problems of a large number of young, even educated, males not eligible as partners because of status and economic opportunity suppression (bribes and racketeering) led to a violent outbreak. To a lesser degree some European Eastern Block countries had similar mechanics of mistresses adjunct to people with power in opaque regimes with lots of bribery and black markets in the late days.
Part of the game of having the polygamy advantage is surpressing the competition by fair and foul means, very similar to bullying. Mistresses are a kind of alignment due to her optimal choices under the status quo. Naturally, this can cause severe tensions towards equality, including toppling all gouvernments. At the same time it's true that mistresses have less children if their position is more connected to status than wealth choices.
It may sound strange to some, but European monogamy, with limited polygamy, was closer to the economic ideal of providing most wealth for one woman's offspring and fostering economic growth by individual initiative with direct pay-offs in a small partnership of two heterosexual adults and their minor aged offspring. This resulted in the population growth leading to European ascendancy (very slowly from at least 1000 AD onwards) and was opposed to the previous more polygamous and extended family under one roof with one economy centered models.

What does this have to do with technology?
Europe was split among small competing "tribes" while China was most of the time one united large tribe - nation. Inventions with similar applications were made on both sides or even exchanged between them if the other side was interested. There were lots of things the Chinese were not interested in, something that lacked the other way round, where each of the "tribes"/small political entities had formed a very similar culture that tried to outcompete each other in splendor and novelities with top down influences via servants and the burgeoise upstarts.
China might even have had a cutting edge with early inventions and applications, but it did not foster the same economy and outlook on perspectives. Rising, as mentioned before, was not associated with wealth through trade or plunder (the merchant, the pirate, the warrior) or steady work of the peasant or the craftsman (the craftsman became the industrialist and paid some peasants handy for their lands, making them part of the small or medium capitalists). Peasant and craftsman are not mutually exclusive and as time developed, the shift was increasingly to less agriculture and more crafts.
China by contrast had people rising in status, rather not wealth, that in case of not being inherited and combined with recognition of education, seems to have attained little standing as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong). In this aspect China has a resemblance to the Catholic countries that are still less developed than the Protestant countries because
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
made achieving wealth something positive.
A woman, who wanted or was driven to have a good/better partner, had the choice between certified scholars or certified scholars and some certified officers (the last one eliminetad by introducing a closed ethnic group nobility). This polygamy had a status direction, while in Europe it had a wealth direction, giving monogamy more of a competitive edge. The status direction in my opinion could make this phenomena more widespread than the wealth difference would have warranted by calculating women (they exist, just like calculating men).
On the wider perspective this limits male competition to becoming a scholar or getting enough for the offspring to become a scholar (Want to marry me, I have a contract for a private tutor for our offspring?). That totally took out the incentive for economic development beyond the means necessary to be scholar class. This choice possibly bred a nation of very clever people with many scholars among their ancestors, while Europeans were picking up economically and in industry with private vices public benefits (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
). From a contemporary Chinese perspective this must have been a highly immoral concept because it was so cunning-merkantile and Confucius interpreters had to disapprove of this barbaric way.
The barbaric way had more incentives for other achievements, including getting a wife, than the Chinese scholars, including the military arts. Then came the day, when the Chinese found out that they weren't masters in all fields any more. After a time of denial, a hysteric devaluation of still existing Chinese outstanding advances followed and now we discuss the opinions shaped by these events.


Anybody wants a mistress? mistresses1&2.300.jpg
Thanks for reading my long argument.
 
Last edited:

vesicles

Colonel
so why does Hu or Wen not start wearing something different? say Mao suits for a change? They still wear that on certain domestic occasions. Why not 'promote' Chinese culture in say G-20 meeting with a Mao suit?

Mao suit is not Chinese in origin. It's more like originated in Japan or the Soviets. It's definitely NOT Chinese.
 
Top