How did China change in Culture, from Imperial era to today.

Lezt

Junior Member
Look, it seems like we have fallen into a classic internet argument trap, where we will just argue for the sake of arguing. Yes, you can find any exception to what I am saying, the school standards, and government lobbyist etc.. but what I am saying is, the overall trend is there, overall Western university do have a lot better research staff and infrastructure, and this is expected because they had this from beginning and China is playing catch up, and due to the structure of democracy it is very susceptible to interest group influence. And go ahead look what ICBM UK use? and where it is made from? Do you think there is any other nation willing to share that kind of technology?

You can go ahead and find exception to everything I have just posted, but... remember, overall trends, not just one or two examples. I am not going to reply to you anymore, this is not going anywhere. If you have anything new to add to this discussion I would love to hear it, for example if you can think what will be China's cultural future influence like.

I am of the perspective that there is no better/worse research institute and that overall trends are purely speculative and in this case, primarily your belief.

You know, most of western science's advances were made during a time which they do not have funding or facilities; but also they do not have PETA or human rights or the EPA. I do not believe that what Unit 731 or the doctors at Auschwitz or the US deliberate exposure of Australian troops to the Abomb; The Tuskegee Syphilis Study; or the tests at US veteran hospitals (an intersting read:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
). But I do not deny the greatest advance in science is by achieved through these sacrifices.

When an acquaintance of mine was testing radioactive sourced artificial stirling engine hearts in Cows somewhere in Michigan during the 60s; there was no PETA. Another who did rocket research didn't really consider the environment when they were launching civilian test missiles with hydrogen peroxide / hydroxyquinoline (walter engine) somewhere in the massachusetts area in the 50s. Try doing any of these things nowadays in the US or EU.

My point really is, there is a lot of things you can do in China or another third world country nowadays that you cannot do in any first world country; and this ability to do things or to try things is something which theoretical discussions; a sluggish permit process, computer simulations and all that nice things the west can offer, cannot displace. This is one of the reasons why Gerald Bull took his research to Iraq to continue it, good government funding and the ability to do anything - is very tempting to the best and the brightest. I will not be surprised that the best and the brightest currently reside in China; given that China is willing to give 100 million USD to Mike O’Dwyer for him to develop Metal Storm in China.

And really, technology is freely bartered; if you think ballistic missile technology is not, then I suppose you don't believe the Iran, Syria and N. Korea did not transfer missile technology? Or latest armaments - like Russia selling T80 tanks to S. Korea in the 1990s? Or Iran building Chinese cruise missiles?

I am still of the perspective that research institutes and capabilities are all relatively in the same ball park;
 

solarz

Brigadier
You say ranking matters little. Yet, most of the Western universities you mentioned are top-notch research universities. Some of them might not rank highly in the undergraduate program because of their size, like A&M and Michigan. However, nearly all of them have excellent research programs and rank highly in the graduate programs. So ranking does mean something... In my opinion, Tsinghua and Beijing do not even stand a chance against any of the Western universities you mentioned. If you think about it, almost all the good students from these universities go abroad. How can any university perform well when the best of its students go elsewhere?

To put it into perspective, a student who graduated from Qinghua will almost certainly do extraordinarily well in any top rank US university. To enter universities like Qinghua, a person has to be highly competitive and determined.

Now research programs are another matter. I've always found this dual role of university to be very strange. Why force professors who are excellent researchers to teach undergrad classes, when they might not be particularly suited to do that? Why sideline excellent lecturers who does not have the experience to be at the top of their field yet? It seems to me that research should be research, and teaching should be teaching.

Chinese education, from very early on, focuses too much on results and not enough on the process. Chinese parents ask what grade you got in your test, not what you learned in the class. Teachers and schools get "incentives" if they can raise the test grades of their class. You can only get higher education if you can pass an exam. This mentality of results over process is drilled into Chinese students, and that is probably the biggest problem facing academic research in China right now.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Now research programs are another matter. I've always found this dual role of university to be very strange. Why force professors who are excellent researchers to teach undergrad classes, when they might not be particularly suited to do that? Why sideline excellent lecturers who does not have the experience to be at the top of their field yet? It seems to me that research should be research, and teaching should be teaching.

I like your way of thinking. Unfortunately, money talks even in academia. Professors with research programs have to pay "tax" to the school, in the form of "indirect cost". When a professor gets a grant, he/she will have to leave 20%-40% of that grant to the school. A professor at a decent school should get ~$750,000 external funding annually. Of course, this is biology/medicine programs. Physical science or engineering program can't get that much. Anyway, he/she have to pay the school, on average 30% of this funding. So if a department has 30 faculty members, that means the school will get about $6.75 million annually just from this department. So literally, professors are making money for the school. On the other hand, the value of lecturers cannot be measured by any parameter since they don't publish papers and don't obtain any funding. So their value is less obvious. Particularly, since they don't actually bring in any extra money, they are typically viewed as less valuable. So lecturers are typically marginalized.

So to answer your question "why can't they let the professors do research and let the lecturers teach?" Well, professors serve two functions to the school: 1) publish papers and get funding so that school will get loads of money; 2) their reputation as experts in their respective field will attract high-quality students, high SAT scores, better ranking and ultimately more money (in the form of donations and endowments). So if they only have to stay in their labs and do research, there would be little chance that any student will be able to interact with them and learn from the best. Then why would any student come to this school? You don't come to a college because it has excellent lecturers who teach excellent classes. Many high school teachers can do that too in AP classes and probably can do a better job. You come to a school because it has world-leading experts and feel that you might be able to learn something from the best and will ultimately benefit you. So these experts will have to teach, no matter how much they don't want to.

This actually brings up another point. Why don't researchers want to teach? It has everything to do with the academic system. Teaching is a major source of stress. WHY? Well, excellent teaching won't get you any real credit. Yes, you can win all kinds of teaching awards, but it means absolutely NOTHING in time of tenure review/promotion. It is still the hard-core stuff, like publication and funding, that measures your level of success in academia. However, bad teaching will hurt you badly. If you get many teaching complaints, you better prepare to defend yourself in tenure review. Unlike any other job where no promotion means simply you stay where you are, no tenure in academia means no job at all. If you can't obtain tenure 5-6 years into your professorship, you will have to pack up and leave. Plain and simply. So this is not simply an ambition issue (you want to be promoted, etc...), but whether you can still have a job and a roof over your head and food on your table!! So lots of pressure. So from the moment we begin, we have one and only one goal: tenure! Anything that distracts us from that goal will be viewed as, obviously, negative. So you can see why teaching can be a source of stress for a professor. If we LOVE teaching and want to dedicate more time to it, that means we are diverting valuable time and energy away from research, which will, no doubt, hurt us. If we don't do a good job teaching, we will get complaints and that will hurt us as well. So no matter what we do, teaching will hurt us. Bad situation... And stress:mad::mad::mad:

To put it into perspective, a student who graduated from Qinghua will almost certainly do extraordinarily well in any top rank US university. To enter universities like Qinghua, a person has to be highly competitive and determined.

No doubt about that! Chinese universities produce excellent students.

Chinese education, from very early on, focuses too much on results and not enough on the process. Chinese parents ask what grade you got in your test, not what you learned in the class. Teachers and schools get "incentives" if they can raise the test grades of their class. You can only get higher education if you can pass an exam. This mentality of results over process is drilled into Chinese students, and that is probably the biggest problem facing academic research in China right now.

Agreed. Many Chinese postdocs I've met over the years tend to get nervous when they can't get the kind of positive results that their professors want. I am always puzzled by this. A result is a result. No one expects your professor to be 100% right all the time. Why get nervous about getting different result? Its not your fault. If anyone is at fault when a prediction is different from experimental data, it's the prediction! In my opinion, the moment you show your boss is wrong is the moment he/she will see you as a fellow colleague, instead of a subordinate/technician. Yet, many Chinese students/postdocs seem to be more comfortable with the role of a subordinate. I think it has a lot to do with how they have been trained as students. They have been measured by how well they can answer test questions correctly. To them, there is always a correct answer and this answer has always been aligned with the teacher. So they have to agree with the teacher.
 
Last edited:

solarz

Brigadier
So to answer your question "why can't they let the professors do research and let the lecturers teach?" Well, professors serve two functions to the school: 1) publish papers and get funding so that school will get loads of money; 2) their reputation as experts in their respective field will attract high-quality students, high SAT scores, better ranking and ultimately more money (in the form of donations and endowments). So if they only have to stay in their labs and do research, there would be little chance that any student will be able to interact with them and learn from the best. Then why would any student come to this school? You don't come to a college because it has excellent lecturers who teach excellent classes. Many high school teachers can do that too in AP classes and probably can do a better job. You come to a school because it has world-leading experts and feel that you might be able to learn something from the best and will ultimately benefit you. So these experts will have to teach, no matter how much they don't want to.

See, in my undergrad years, I couldn't care less about the reputation of certain professors in their academic fields. I can see how it's different from graduate studies, but undergrad studies are all about lectures, textbook, and the occasional lab (which is led by TAs anyway). What an eminent professor does in their research is most likely incomprehensible for me anyway.

I would think that the tuition students pay would be motivation for the university to give more incentives to good lecturers...
 

vesicles

Colonel
See, in my undergrad years, I couldn't care less about the reputation of certain professors in their academic fields. I can see how it's different from graduate studies, but undergrad studies are all about lectures, textbook, and the occasional lab (which is led by TAs anyway). What an eminent professor does in their research is most likely incomprehensible for me anyway.

I would think that the tuition students pay would be motivation for the university to give more incentives to good lecturers...

Yes, not in the immediate sense. A good lecturer can only become useful when students decide to come to the school. What motivates a student to go to a certain school? It's the reputation of the school. When was the last time you heard of a world-class lecturer? Probably never. Nobody has heard of a famous lecturer at Harvard that makes Harvard an attractive school. Everyone, however, looked at Princeton differently when Einstein decided to join its faculty. University of Chicago has been well known for its economics department and business school because of all the Nobel prizes that its economics faculty has won. Rice University is famous for its nanotechnology (go Owls!!). University of Texas is famous for its petroleum engineering. All the reputation comes from research programs and famous professors. once a brand is built, people will flock to it. More student = more tuition = more buildings and research facilities = more young/established brilliant scientists = more papers/funding = even better name brand = better students (since more people want to come) = even more tuition, etc. You see the positive feedback loop...

giving good lectures is important, but not as important as you would think. It's well known that Ivy League schools have serious grade inflation. An estimated 90% of Harvard students get A's. Yet, many still want to get in Harvard. Why? With an Ivy League degree, everything becomes easier. How did the Ivy League school build up their name and fame? The answer is the positive feedback loops I provided above. So having a good name is absolutely critical. And research is THE only way to get it because that's how an expert is made.

you can't become an expert just by reading a few books and teach a few classes. Additionally, being well-known requires people actually knowing you. Even if a lecturer is the best in the world, there would be no way he/she can become well known outside of the school since he/she doesn't publish. So you have to publish to let people know you. That means doing research. So research is the only way to produce famous people, in academia of course.
 
Last edited:
Top