How did China change in Culture, from Imperial era to today.

vesicles

Colonel
Also I think, it goes a little haywire when a society first opens up. Just look at America in the 70's. All kinds of weird things happened. So whatever weird things are happening in China now will not be permanent.

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

I think what he means is that Mistress was a form of concubines was very widespread and actually accepted in old Chinese society. Although concubines is now totally illegal, but it is coming back as form of Mistress, and they are not just there because the man want to have fun, it is rather became a status symbol nowadays in China, that if you want to be respected, you have to drive a nice car, have an Iphone, owns a lot of houses and yes, a lot of 2nd wives.

that is a status symbol for men everywhere, hence the term "trophy wives".
 

stardave

Junior Member
Also I think, it goes a little haywire when a society first opens up. Just look at America in the 70's. All kinds of weird things happened. So whatever weird things are happening in China now will not be permanent.

---------- Post added at 03:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------



that is a status symbol for men everywhere, hence the term "trophy wives".

Difference is the concubines system was institutionalized in China back in the old days, it was accepted as part of society without any stigma. The argument is that as China gets more wealthly, this old habit might be coming back, I am sure there are examples of this, but I hope not, and be interested if there is any study on this.

This maybe consider one of the culture traditions that Chinese have gotten rid off from the past, or it maybe also coming back as well. Only time can tell.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

This is an interesting topic, and one I've pondered about myself as well.

First, we need to understand the sociopolitical climate of the late Qing era. China was defeated by the British in the Opium War, forced to cede Hong Kong; defeated by the Japanese in the Jiawu Battle and lost the entire Northern Fleet; its capital was sacked by the Eight Nations Alliance; forced into signing unequal treaties that granted foreigners extrajudicial rights; etc. etc.

The Chinese people, who had considered themselves the pinnacle of civilization at that moment, was now faced with the truth that they were now, in fact, a backwater society in danger of being left behind by the march of progress.

All this spurred Chinese intellectuals to look outside of China for social values. Sun Yat-sen brought back Republicanism, which eventually overthrew the Qing dynasty. This fundamentally changed the political culture of China: no longer would the Chinese accept an "Emperor" as their ruler. When Yuan Shikai tried to bring back imperialism and crown himself emperor, he was besieged by literally *everyone*. Yuan's faction was wiped out even though he had the strongest force at the time.

Another thing we need to understand is that feudal Chinese society was an *extremely* unequal society. Magistrates and Aristocrats could abuse peasants with impunity. Women had very little social status and were regarded as little higher than property for the men. Although the Republic of China ended imperial and aristocratic rule, many of the social inequalities remained. Although the Republic outlawed polygamy, this was rarely enforced. People still went on with a wife and one or more concubines. Other traditional practices, such as food binding, also continued.

Once the communists came into power, all that changed. Mao decreed that all backwater feudal practices were to be outlawed and severely punished. Most of the break from traditional practices came from the Mao era. He also declared that "women held up half the sky", and overnight, the women of China became equal to the men.

However, with the liberalization of the society that followed on the footsteps of the liberalization of the economy, traditional practices are returning to the Chinese society. Concubinage has again become a widespread practice, and much like it was during the feudal era, it is mostly practiced by the rich and powerful. Fortunately, gender equality does not seem to have suffered as a result.

Chinese society today is a place of contradictions. It is in constant flux, and has yet to find a balance between its traditional roots, and the empowerment of modernity. It remains to be seen what China will be like in the future.


Interesting, I see a lot of civilizations all around the world tries to adopt to this shock from the Western cultural invasion, would be interesting to see how China have tried to adopted to this, what exactly they learned from the West and how much have this new value replaced the old value, for example it appears that China is no longer an absolute monarchy system, but then again Mao governed China much like emperor himself, but the current leadership style is more consensus based, I wonder if this is going to be the new norm, or in the future if a strongman desires to take over, will the average Chinese accept him as an emperor style ruler.

As for the example of concubines culture, this is something that was discarded from the old days and then maybe getting accepted back again, because maybe the concept has not been totally erased, it was hidden behind people unconscious, and if this is so, I wonder what other traditions might be awaken again (good or bad).

And I think Woman’s equality is going to stay for good, because everyone can see how valuable woman can contribute to society if they are empowered, and this is not something that can go back again.
 

i.e.

Senior Member
Manchu had a chance because of Wu Sangui and had little to do with weapons. It was mainly the Wu's army, which was also Ming forces, that defeated Ming forces and united China for the Manchus.

If the Ming army would crush what essentially amounts to a rebellion by the Manchu tribes with ease,
Wu Sangui would never had the chance to throw in his lot.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Mistress occurs everywhere there is wealthy people and is not limited to only modern-day/ancient China.

You mentioned polygamy, are you saying these people now live together? Commonly occurring is not the same as acceptable. Turning a blind eye on it also does not equal to supporting it. The wife tolerating the husband having mistresses is also not limited to China. Should I remind you a lady called Hilary Clinton? That's different from polygamy, where a man living in the same house with his wives. All you have to do is to turn on a TV in the middle of the day and watch one of those day-time soaps and you'll see how kind of weird things going on...

And what is "Xiao San"?

"Xiao San" = 小三

Yes, mistresses exist everywhere in the world, but the alarming sign from China is how widespread it is. Anybody who owns a semi-successful business, or holds a mildly important government post, would more likely than not to have a mistress.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Difference is the concubines system was institutionalized in China back in the old days, it was accepted as part of society without any stigma. The argument is that as China gets more wealthly, this old habit might be coming back, I am sure there are examples of this, but I hope not, and be interested if there is any study on this.

This maybe consider one of the culture traditions that Chinese have gotten rid off from the past, or it maybe also coming back as well. Only time can tell.


Well, we can use Taiwan and Hong Kong as examples and assume that China, when wealthy, will be more like them in the future. I don't know when Taiwan eliminated poligamy, but Hong Kong eliminated polygamy in the late 70's. Even with freedom and democracy, both Hong Kong and Taiwan elected to outlaw polygamy. Same went with SK and Japan. All these nations share a similar culture. If they eliminated all the nasty stuff when they became wealthy, why would you think China will be different? So I would have a much positive outlook of China's future.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

"Xiao San" = 小三

Yes, mistresses exist everywhere in the world, but the alarming sign from China is how widespread it is. Anybody who owns a semi-successful business, or holds a mildly important government post, would more likely than not to have a mistress.

That's the first time I heard that term.

Anyway. When people have been oppressed for too long, more freedom and more wealth make people do all sorts of crazy stuff. Just like in the late 80's, people used to burn suitcases of money in public, just to show off how much money they had. Nobody does that anymore. The modern-day China is a lot like a teenager who is acting up. It will wear off.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Well, we can use Taiwan and Hong Kong as examples and assume that China, when wealthy, will be more like them in the future. I don't know when Taiwan eliminated poligamy, but Hong Kong eliminated polygamy in the late 70's. Even with freedom and democracy, both Hong Kong and Taiwan elected to outlaw polygamy. Same went with SK and Japan. All these nations share a similar culture. If they eliminated all the nasty stuff when they became wealthy, why would you think China will be different? So I would have a much positive outlook of China's future.

---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------



/QUOTE]

Years ago, during my school days i attended a lecture about population control given by some academic involved with the United Nations.He said that a study had shown that under a polygamous relationship, a woman would have less children , than she would in a monagamous relationship. So in Chinas case , perhaps it should be allowed to continue?
 

xywdx

Junior Member
Polygamy in China is an obvious result of income disparity, getting 1% of a rich man's money is far better than getting 50% of a average man's money. Once the situation improves and income becomes more evenly distributed in China, the occurrence of polygamy will decrease naturally, I wouldn't worry too much.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Polygamy in China is an obvious result of income disparity, getting 1% of a rich man's money is far better than getting 50% of a average man's money. Once the situation improves and income becomes more evenly distributed in China, the occurrence of polygamy will decrease naturally, I wouldn't worry too much.

You know, I'm not so sure that the income disparity will decrease in China. In the 30 years since market reform, it has only increased. Then you look at wealthy nations like the US and Canada, and they are both heading in the same direction.

I don't think it's at all certain that the wealth gap in China will narrow in the next 50 years. The idea of concubinage might very well become entrenched in the mindset of Chinese men by then.
 

stardave

Junior Member
You know, I'm not so sure that the income disparity will decrease in China. In the 30 years since market reform, it has only increased. Then you look at wealthy nations like the US and Canada, and they are both heading in the same direction.

I don't think it's at all certain that the wealth gap in China will narrow in the next 50 years. The idea of concubinage might very well become entrenched in the mindset of Chinese men by then.


Question is, does the idea of concubinage widespread in Taiwan, HK or even Japan or South Korea? I ask because they share similar culture to China, do they have this problem now? Did that have this problem when they were developing?
 

solarz

Brigadier
Question is, does the idea of concubinage widespread in Taiwan, HK or even Japan or South Korea? I ask because they share similar culture to China, do they have this problem now? Did that have this problem when they were developing?

Good question! A lot of Taiwanese and HK businessmen actually keep mistresses in the Mainland.
 
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