Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brumby

Major
If that were the only force prompting this movement, and if this movement would not lead to anything beyond those goals that you described, then I would wholly support it.

I would share a bit more since you are at least open minded over this whole democratic debate.

There is a background and history to actually understand the driving force behind the democratic push in HK. We will have to go back to more than 30 years when the reality sank in that HK would be reverting to China in 1997. When reversion became apparent there were widespread panic in HK with property prices and stock market plummeting and basically anyone who was able to was planning to flee. When Chairman Deng said to Thatcher that China can anytime walk in and just take back HK and there is nothing that Britain can do about it, Thatcher famously made the remark that Mr. Chairman you can certainly do so but that HK would not be worth a dime to China. Chairman Deng understood this point very well. In essence the 1984 joint Sino British declaration was birth out of this clear understanding that HK as a financial centre needs to be preserved and the basis that has underpinned its success was the rule of law, transparency and accountability. The principle of universal suffrage was the ultimate goal to preserve a foundation to that success. The joint agreement of a democratic process was the key in stabilising HK people's concern at that time on the notion that an established democratic process would ensure continuity of the rule of law, transparency and accountability that has been a source of HK's prosperity against a communist regime which was an unknown at that time.

The idea of a Trojan horse or the constant gripe that Britain did not introduce a democratic process until the takeover are based on ignorance of the reasoning that went into the joint declaration. That same reasoning of ensuring a democratic process that would underpin rule of law, transparency and accountability remains true today as it was 30 years ago even though it is pretty much watered down.
 
I wonder if the HK CE CY Leung isn't secretly hoping that these protests would last some what longer.:rolleyes: As I understand he was widely unpopular with the majority of the Hongkongese even amongst those outside of the OC movement. Now because of the behaviour of the OC crowd people are starting to rally around him and the HK goverment just to oppose the OC guys. There is now even a pro-government blue ribbon movement in Hong Kong. Lets hope HK doesn't turn into another Thailand.:(

I think it would be wise for the OC to make a tactical redraw at this point and to make a comeback later. (Which at this point is not happening) Because emotions are so high right now in HK that people may just take the opposite position and view of the OC movement just for the sake of it. And the OC movement may actually succeed in what Beijing and CY Leung couldn't do. Make the majority of the Hongkongese support the new elections arrangements.

The blue ribbon still doesn't like him. They still call him 689. They are just annoyed with the OC. I thought for a bit tonight and I think you guys said it before, but that the student leaders fell for the trap of ceasing negotiation. Anyways.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
When Chairman Deng said to Thatcher that China can anytime walk in and just take back HK and there is nothing that Britain can do about it, Thatcher famously made the remark that Mr. Chairman you can certainly do so but that HK would not be worth a dime to China. Chairman Deng understood this point very well.


Than why did the British fought tooth and nail during the negotiation process to keep Hong Kong to themselves for as long as possible if they believe that if it worth almost nothing to China?
 
Actually, I have this exact problem. Not like you, I don't have a rich dad. I was earning $13,000 per/mo for 3 years working for the pursuit of my ideal. I still don't have my own home, for example.

The difference is I don't blame the government. Sure I hate the real estate tycoons. Sure the government could have built more affordable housing. But I really feel like those youngsters are making outrageous demands. They expect things to be handed to them. They look at things through a pinhole and impose their narrow POV on us, claiming to represent us.

There were a time when people look up to Lee Ka Shing and said, "I want to be him". Those were the days when people worked hard to earn a living. They are the older generation people who helped HK amass the wealth that we have today, the very people who are trying to prevent you guys from destroying their legacy.

Hong Kong is way past its prime, whether it is headed by a democratic government or not. But things aren't grim. We still have China. If they are not so brainwashed and conditioned to hate on China, they would have seen the opportunities in China like the rest of the world do. Unfortunately, while the world are happily making money in/with China, our youth are stuck in a Cold War mentality that is beyond reason and logic. They fiercely defend their proud Cantonese heritage, and refuse to learn anything about China, discounting them as "brainwash education". Reluctant to work in China or aboard, they are firmly stuck in Hong Kong, choosing to complain about the lack of opportunities instead.

When people said they're "proud of our youth" for standing up against the government, my heart weeps. Nothing can be more tragic than a time when stupidity and narrow-mindedness are touted as wise. I feel sad about our youth; and ashamed of the people who mislead and indoctrinate them with distorted facts/one-sided opinions.

No I don't think you understand them.

I also don't think it's entirely brainwash or anything. People's attitudes are formed based on information and experiences. You can say brainwashed in terms of information fed to them, but also the encounters and experiences of encounters and interactions with rude mainland individuals, combined with reaffirmation of other people's information, can reinforce these ideas. I'm not to say such attitude is correct, but rather it is not quite the cynic interpretation one may expect.

Furthermore, I feel you should be proud of their recognition of the imbalances and unfairness of privilege. How one goes about to cope with privilege is another story, but to recognize it is very important. Without recognition of privilege or issues in society, there will be no movements to end slavery, apartheid, civil direct actions to hold governments accountable, public accountability that forced Nixon to resign, and even revolutions that overthrow regimes. -isms such as racisms, ableism, etc etc will less likely be seen as a undesirable thinking in our modern society, especially when you consider our human history had only just recently begin to accept these things as unacceptable. (this paragraph isn't advocating for revolution to subvert Chinese sovereignty on HK. It's just to help visualize my idea)

Furthermore, regardless of which democracy is in place, it's important to accept people being different, along with their ideas. I guarantee that one day one of those protestors you meet on the streets could be the next writer, the next volunteer, the next professor in humanities, the next activists, the next politician, the next innovator, or someone you feel you're able to hold a 5 hour talk about politics. Always be happy of a society where people speaks out. When no one does, that's when you should be scared.
 

Brumby

Major
Than why did the British fought tooth and nail during the negotiation process to keep Hong Kong to themselves for as long as possible if they believe that if it worth almost nothing to China?

Is it 2 separate questions or 1? If it is the latter, I actually don't understand the question. Concerning why Britain hang on, I believe initially they thought they could but the signals out of China through the negotiations suggest that China was serious about having back HK. Defending HK militarily was a no go.
HK had to be preserved in its way of life or else it would be just an empty city.
 
i wonder if we can consider this an ultimatum.

but why can't Leung offer a compromise? maybe ask the protesters to remain on one side of the building and have government workers enter and leave from the back door... would be a reasonable offer.

The OC movement took to the streets when the original planned location for the protests are blocked off from the police. That area could've conveniently held everyone, but in my words, the police's "efforts to suppress the movement by condoning off the premise" was what kicked up the game, where then of course the riot police's tear gas made things even worse. However, the 2 biggest faults were pepper spraying the high school students and the tear gas. These brought the numbers up.

A friend of mine today said that had the thugs not shown up, the numbers probably would have died down then ended with a nice closure. However the thugs attacking the students(or anyone attacking the students) brought the numbers back up to 5000-8000 in MK. I personally don't understand why they occupied MK and I think it's not very useful, if not counterproductive, and I say the situation that came out made things a lot worse. The negotiations ceased because the student leaders demanded the HKSAR to stop the thugs or cease the negotiation, which they did stop negotiating, and the numbers also went back up when they pleaded for people to return to protect the students(pictures of high school students beaten and covered with blood, as well as molestor gangs targeting females), which did lead to a surge. Whether you believe the thugs are connected is up to you, and I'm not gonna spend time debating on that cuz I'm tired, but I'd definitely say the past 48 hours had been a big step back than anything. I was really hoping for Sunday to end everything, but I doubt everything could be over in time now.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
HK had to be preserved in its way of life or else it would be just an empty city.


No it doesn't. Evolution of places and people happens all the time. Who said that it must be preserve at all cost or else it becomes "empty"? You make it sound like HK had ONLY one character.
 
Hi.

I'm glad you've come to your senses. What did CY do that bothers you so much? I'm thinking it's he's in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation thanks to all the whining so prevalent in today's society. Nowadays people can blame you for absolutely no logical reason. At least CY is actively trying to suppress the real estate prices and make himself the enemy of the real estate tycoons.

I wasn't getting enough sleep, but also I was very agitated about people attacking the students. Honestly no matter how much you disagree with them, I feel physical assaults are unacceptable, as well as violating female students.

I think you've said you're from HK, so I assume you understand Cantonese. This video should explain a lot of things as to why HKSAR government deserves the anger they're getting today.

[video=youtube;-nBGMD4ZxmA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nBGMD4ZxmA&feature=share[/video]

And yes it's for sure it's damned if you do, damned if you don't, but I feel there are areas where he could probably done a lot better and he might have control. I also feel some of his attitudes and behaviours really come off as disregard for the public, which I think plays a HUGE role in spiking anger. Also I feel you shouldn't blame them as whining. Try and start by listening and think why they are feeling that way. They must have a reason. Don't land the conclusion that's how a person is, because if you go a step further and ask them why, then they will explain and you will hear or find out something you never thought of. Imagine a doctor who cuts you off from letting you rant off your pain then telling you to take a certain medication and say it's a flu, when in fact it could be something else.

One thing I will say is, I don't trust the HKSAR government at all (like the other 49% in a survey recently conducted by HKU), so my views of them will be a lot more cynic and full of conspiracy or even bias. I'm gonna put this out there first. Oh and please don't think I'm pan-democratic neither. I don't trust anyone in LegCo, and would gladly like to replace everyone. Pro-China camps disregard the greater public and their needs and only serves businesses interests and Beijing, while pan-democrats are not the best themselves neither.
 

ABC78

Junior Member
In Hong Kong, a Family Divided
After Pro-Democracy Protests, a Son Faces Arguments at Home

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In Hong Kong, a Family Divided

After Pro-Democracy Protests, a Son Faces Arguments at Home

HONG KONG—Late one night, 23-year-old Near Chiu came back to his family’s apartment, tired and needing a shower after days on the streets with pro-democracy protesters who have occupied parts of the city this past week.

His father’s first words, Near recalled, were: “So, did you get a taste of the tear gas?” Angered by the derisive tone, Near retreated to his tiny bedroom, set off from the living room with a curtain, and followed news about the protests on his computer.

Such confrontations between young and old have been playing out in crowded, shoe-box apartments and on the streets across this teeming city.

The generational divide was evident Friday when crowds of mostly middle-aged men confronted the demonstrators in one busy shopping area, leading to clashes. Many counter-demonstrators appeared to be shopkeepers and street vendors, who complained that their businesses are suffering as a result of the chaos.

Student leaders, accusing the police of failing to do their job, pulled back from proposed talks with the local government.

Many of the teenagers and young adults who form the core of the protests have an aspirational vision for Hong Kong as a Western-style democracy in which the public has a say in politics. Many elders feel lucky to have climbed out of poverty to make a decent living on mainland China’s doorstep and don’t want to put their gains at risk by upending the status quo with Beijing.

Near’s father, Chiu Kin Ming, said he felt the protests—which swelled dramatically after the police tear-gassed demonstrators on Sept. 28—were harmful to the city, hurting his and other businesses. “There will be problems,” he said.

The dispute centers on the election of Hong Kong’s top leader, who has the title chief executive. Under a new plan, Hong Kong residents would be allowed to vote for chief executive for the first time—but only from candidates approved by a nominating committee that Beijing largely controls.

A poll last month by the Chinese University of Hong Kong showed that three-fourths of people age 15 to 24 opposed the plan, compared with less than half of people aged 40-59.

The poll also found that the city’s best-known pro-democracy group, Occupy Central, had more support among the young: 47% of people under 24 said they backed it, compared with about 21% of those ages 40-59.

The generation gap is a byproduct of Hong Kong’s ascendance from developing-world status to a sleek, wealthy financial hub.

Though there is wide income disparity—most Hong Kongers live far from the skyscrapers overlooking Victoria Harbour—the city’s rise has created expectations among the young for possibilities that would have been unimaginable for their parents.

Near’s father—a stocky man in his 50s with receding hair—would like his son to take over his jade shop. He said he is proud that he has earned enough through his business to raise two children and buy a home.

Near, who wears his hair in a long black fringe, would like to become a commercial photographer, like one of his heroes Steven Meisel, an American fashion photographer. He wears a black shirt that reads, “I shoot people” with the image of a camera on it. But he doesn’t want to look for a job right now because he wants to keep protesting.

“I will not do sales,” Near said in a recent interview before preparing to go back to the protests. “That’s not the world that belongs to me.”

The differences are intensified by another prevalent factor of Hong Kong life: entire families live together, even when the children are well into adulthood. That is partly out of custom and partly because real-estate prices in this densely populated city of seven million are among the highest in the world.

Many young protesters said they were sneaking out of their houses to join rallies without telling their parents, hoping they wouldn’t find out.

A day earlier, in their cramped apartment in the Fanling area, near the border with the mainland, Near and his sister and parents watched TV. Images of protests flashed on; the conversation turned to politics.

“Before, the Communist Party wasn’t democratic,” the father said. “But in recent years, from being not very democratic at all, it’s improved,” he said.

“The Communist Party hasn’t changed,” his son responded.

“The economy has improved,” his father said. “The mainland in a lot of ways has gotten really developed. Not like before, when life was harsh and bitter.”

Mr. Chiu grew up in the poverty-stricken northern countryside of Guangdong province, where the family farmed corn. During the turmoil of the Mao Zedong era, Mr. Chiu’s father left for Hong Kong and started Tak Lee Jade & Jewelry, on busy Canton Road.

In 1978, in his 20s, Mr. Chiu followed. At the time, China’s per capita gross domestic product was only about $200. He said he was impressed by Hong Kong’s shopping malls and eager to enjoy the more-modern ways of life in the flourishing British colony.

For years, the family lived in a space where they had just one bed and shared a toilet and kitchen with other families. But the jade shop did well, especially after Beijing loosened rules on mainlanders traveling to Hong Kong to shop. Mr. Chiu was able to buy an apartment—now the family home—as a government-subsidized rate in 1994 for 300,000 Hong Kong dollars ($38,700).

The family started to use air conditioning, a big luxury. Mr. Chiu bought Near his first camera when his son was 16. The son spent hours wandering through the city taking photographs. But his father hammered home a simple message: “You need to be a useful person,” he said. “You need to make money. More, more money.”

The son, whose birth name is Chiu Sung Tat, began calling himself Near after a Japanese cartoon character. He said that as he got older, he became more interested in politics and civic society than in earning money.

He started watching Hong Kong’s legislative sessions online. He felt drawn to a legislator known as Long Hair (because he vowed never to cut his hair unless the Communist Party was overthrown) and Wong Yuk-ming, who is nicknamed Mad Dog for his fiery speeches on behalf of the city’s pro-democracy movement and its working class.

“I started to see the real problem is that people in government don’t have the peoples’ votes. They don’t need the support of the local people,” Near said. About half of the city’s legislature is now directly elected; the other half is voted in by broad constituencies such as the commercial and legal sectors.

Near began turning up at rallies. He also enrolled at City University of Hong Kong to study creative media. His family’s apartment was so crowded that he worked with the lights off so others could sleep. His father still held out hope his son would follow him into the jade trade.

His son replied: “I think this generation wants to chase their dreams rather than just using traditional methods to follow their ancestors.”

Near joined the current protests early, hanging out on Sept. 26 near a government square that had been sealed off with a 10-foot fence. Some students scaled the fence but were then corralled by police.

Near said he and other students grabbed barricades and started setting up roadblocks to prevent more police from rushing in. He slept outside that night and spent long hours at the protests over the following days, taking pictures.

Later at home, he and his father quarreled over the impact of the protests, which have kept major thoroughfares paralyzed.

Mr. Chiu complained business was slow at his jade store, saying it hadn’t made a single sale for weeks. Father and son sparred over whether the protest activity—or China’s recent anticorruption crackdown, which has dented sales of luxury goods—was to blame.

Talk shifted to his son’s career. Since graduating in June, Near said he has focused on protests, though he mused that someday he could become an assistant to a famous photographer, making perhaps HK$13,000 ($1,675) a month.

“So low,” his mother said. “I can’t believe it,” added his father.

After sleeping a few hours, Near stayed up until the early morning, processing photos from the protest. The next day, he returned to the streets.

—Chester Yung contributed to this article.
 
Last edited:

counterprime

New Member
Registered Member
I find it amusing that the issue of western influence pops up so often

Is the idea of western influence such a major issue in HK or is it simply a convenient talking point?

The idea that the west simply wants to "help" the world is thoroughly debunked by

1. the founding of several of their nations including their empires - present themselves as good "Christians" and then act like the devil. The most common expression to describe western powers during western imperialism was "white devil" so that says something, doesn't it? Imperialism hasn't died btw - it just changed names.
2. atrocious racist treatment of minorities - enslave blacks, "free them"...then lynch and assassinate Black leaders, slaughter Chinese, intern Japanese, etc
3. hypocrisy in foreign policy - "they" have wmd...while the west holds and USES the most wmd in the entire world - nuclear, agent orange, white phosphorus, depleted uranium, napalm. "they" don't value human rights...while western countries have some of the highest levels of racist police brutality of all developed nations. China is a communist totalitarian expansionist regime...yet America has 900+ bases around the world and the "Asian pivot".
4. numerous books/authors such as Economic Hitman, Noam Chomsky - eg *democratically elected* leaders, who aren't pro-us get overthrown by America. They are replaced with a pro-us puppet.
5. widespread whitewashing of war crimes/genocides and worship of western war criminals in school texts and films.
6. hypocrisy in domestic policy - The west values rule of law yet....banking bailout, gmo scandals, pharmaceutical fraud, ignore international laws to wage wars and commit war crimes etc
7. spread lies/blame other other countries constantly eg China "stealing" jobs...that western companies happily send overseas to increase profits. Western "friends" warn Africa about China's "imperialist" ambitions. China's is "bullying" neighbors over islands that they claimed...hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
8. results - China has done remarkably well *without war* while the west, despite it's head start, is falling into irrelevance. The Chinese and indeed, many in the world, are growing less convinced by western rhetoric.

Democracy, western values, Christian values, and the like all "sound good" but actions speak louder than words. Over several centuries, their actions are consistently hypocritical, selfish, racist, and at their worst, barbaric.

Is it now clear why western governments/ngo(s) are seen with great distrust?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top