Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Blitzo

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I find it amusing that the issue of western influence pops up so often in the discussion because that seldom come into my mind in that I am more accustomed to the fact that the society I am exposed too is more independent minded. The biggest problem I see in Western politics is the general indifference.

Is the idea of western influence such a major issue in HK or is it simply a convenient talking point?

The biggest western influence I am talking about specifically, is that a country must be a liberal multiparty democracy otherwise it is not a legitimate state.

The influence of political ideologies of western countries that they use to govern themselves is quite different to the impact of international political ideology espoused to other countries and for foreign audiences.

If we want to go deeper, it comes down to which "race" should lead the world, or whether there should be a single "group" that leads the world, etc. If one internalizes a certain belief on that account, then everything other belief about the world begins to fall into line.
 

delft

Brigadier
lol agreed.

there is one fact that i think airsuperiority should know since he lives in vancouver, youth in Canada in large cities, barring a few fortunate and brilliant ones, are mostly unable to afford buying a house or condo. i will provide a link here on the current conditions of youths in Canada:
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"% of Canadians who filed a tax return in 2009 earned less than $50,000. The average after tax income for families in Canada in 2011 was $79,600, while unattached individuals made an average of $31,400."

by my standard, 31400/year is nowhere near enough to buy a house, I earn way more than this and I am not even contemplating about buying a house in the current toronto market. so democracy or not, youths have it hard these days everywhere.
True. Huge amounts of money are created, by the Fed, BoE, BoJ and large banks with little of value to earn it. This is a way to rob the "poor", the vast majority of people to give to rich. Think of the minimal interest rates that are not providing for the pensions of the old and of the minimal wages available for young people at the start of their carreers who might never earn enough to buy a house.
There is another matter. When you have a job and a house and loose the job will you be able to sell the house and pay of the mortgage to go somewhere else and buy a house there? It is safer to rent a house, especially in HK that has no special role in the World. It had one as a gateway to China but the ports just outside HK are much larger, the new financial center is Shanghai, and HK has been a place to speculate in real estate which is a trap.
 

Brumby

Major
The biggest western influence I am talking about specifically, is that a country must be a liberal multiparty democracy otherwise it is not a legitimate state.

The influence of political ideologies of western countries that they use to govern themselves is quite different to the impact of international political ideology espoused to other countries and for foreign audiences.

If we want to go deeper, it comes down to which "race" should lead the world, or whether there should be a single "group" that leads the world, etc. If one internalizes a certain belief on that account, then everything other belief about the world begins to fall into line.

I get your drift.

I always had the view that the dynamics driving the democratic push in HK resolves around the notion of protecting the integrity of the rule of law, accountability and transparency against the back drop of Beijing's increasing influence behind the scenes. The concern being unchecked administrative policies favouring special interest group and the growth of corruptive practices fostered by such an environment as can be seen by widespread practices in in China.
 
looks like most posters here should like this :)
BEIJING, Oct. 4 -- Hong Kong's prosperity and stability are hard-won and should be treasured, while Hong Kongers' free will shall not be held hostage to those organizers of the Occupy Central movement who have ulterior motives, critics appealed.

Yin Haoliu, a Chinese American freelancer, wrote in an open letter to three initiators of the illegal movement: "Democracy is a step-by-step process that can not be approached in haste, otherwise it will bring about troubles."

"What's wrong with the Communist Party of China which hopes to see a person who loves China and loves Hong Kong elected as Hong Kong's chief executive? Are you willing to choose a chief executive that sells Hong Kong and the whole country?" Yin asked in the letter.

"You should know that on your opposite side are the silent majority... if Hong Kong falls into chaos, you could flee to foreign countries, but how about the ordinary Hong Kongers that are left behind?" he said.

"Christopher Francis Patten said the decision by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress on Aug. 31 that granted universal suffrage in Hong Kong was false...then was he himself as the governor of Hong Kong elected by the Hong Kong people?" the retired doctor said.

Yin said Hong Kong had tided through numerous difficulties with full support of the Chinese mainland since the Basic Law was put into practice, so the initiators of Occupy Central should treasure the city's current prosperity and stability.

On Friday, the Russian Foreign Ministry said Moscow hopes that stability will resume as soon as possible in Hong Kong.

"Events in Hong Kong belong to China's internal affairs. Russia hopes the stability of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR) would be resumed as soon as possible," the ministry's information and press department told Xinhua.

Singapore's Foreign Minister Kasiviswanathan Shanmugam said in an interview with Lianhe Zaobao that many reports on Hong Kong made by the Western media were untrue and biased to China.

They intentionally ignored a fact that Hong Kong had never implemented a democratic system under the British rule for some 150 years, he said, adding that Beijing's plan has granted Hong Kong much more democratic space than what Hong Kongers got in the times of British-ruled Hong Kong.

"Everyone shall be clear about one point, that is, what the central government did conforms with Hong Kong's Basic Law," the foreign minister said.

He said Hong Kong is deeply dependent on the Mainland, including employment and livelihood.

Even though a little anti-Mainland sentiment appeared in Hong Kong, the central government is still generous to Hong Kong, he added.

Jeff Bader, who ran Obama's first term White House East Asia policy, told the Washington Post that for Beijing, there is no room for compromise on issues such as Chinese stability and the leadership of the Communist Party of China.

He also mentioned that millions of Hong Kongers will not support or tolerate the protest that grinds the city to halt for days.

The negative impact of Occupy Central includes a bit of a brain drain, Bader predicted.

Hong Kong has been partially paralysed by the large-scale protests that started on Sept. 28.

A large number of Occupy protesters have taken over major streets in Mong Kok, one of the city's most bustling areas, for at least four days, which has seriously affected businesses of local shops, restaurants and vendors, and forced schools and banks to be closed.

Friday afternoon, some anti-Occupy people clashed with Occupy protesters in Mong Kok and Causeway Bay, Hong Kong's two major commercial areas. Several people were injured during the clashes.

Hong Kong Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying gave an urgent TV broadcast Friday evening, calling on all citizens, no matter what attitude they may have toward the Occupy movement, to keep calm and not to use violence or disrupt public order under any circumstances.
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Brumby

Major
What current OC protesters demanding can be considered unconstitutional as Beijing can say that their interpretation of Basic Law is that Standing committee has the final word on CE's election process. You are not a constitutional lawyer nor am I. We can't question this position legally. Also Basic law can be changed or renounced.
The constitutionality issue of the demand is really not the contention in the current protest. You are mixing things up along the way.

I hate to say this. But if you don't think that there is a possibility for HK to become a bastion of anti-china forces under a pro independence CE , you are the one who needs some doses of reality.
Obviously people are entitled to view fiction and reality in the same light. I just don't share that sentiment.


How is concerns about potential negatives translate into ruling by fear? Also all government at one time or another use fear as a tool, UK government use fear (fear of losing pensions, jobs, the pound, uncertainty) to convince Scots to stay within the Union.
I think you misunderstood the context of my statement. It is managing through fear rather than managing by fear.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I get your drift.

I always had the view that the dynamics driving the democratic push in HK resolves around the notion of protecting the integrity of the rule of law, accountability and transparency against the back drop of Beijing's increasing influence behind the scenes. The concern being unchecked administrative policies favouring special interest group and the growth of corruptive practices fostered by such an environment as can be seen by widespread practices in in China.

If that were the only force prompting this movement, and if this movement would not lead to anything beyond those goals that you described, then I would wholly support it.
 

ABC78

Junior Member
Will mainlanders with HK residency be allowed to vote in 2017 for the Chief Executive?

I ask only because it says universal suffrage for 2017 but who's eligible and who's not.
 

delft

Brigadier
It's like Robert Samuelson of the Washington Post blaming China for the 2008 Western financial crisis. His reasoning... if China didn't buy US treasuries, interest rates wouldn't be low and thus people who couldn't afford houses wouldn't be tempted to get a loan. Yeah but where's the banks' responsibility not to issue a loan to someone who could afford it? So Samuelson just picked one factor, and an extremely indirect one, to lay all the blame on.
Lol, and when the Chinese didn't buy enough the Fed created tens of billions of dollars a month to buy them from the Treasury, dollars created out of hot air.
 

texx1

Junior Member
The constitutionality issue of the demand is really not the contention in the current protest. You are mixing things up along the way.

The constitutionality issues speak to whether OC movement has any legal basis for their demands. Unless a constitutional lawyer specializing in both HK and Mainland law offers a dissenting opinion on this, Beijing can legally dismiss OC's demands according to rule of law without any fanfare.

Obviously people are entitled to view fiction and reality in the same light. I just don't share that sentiment.

Your oxygen is precious and so is mine. There is no point continuing to talk past each other.

I think you misunderstood the context of my statement. It is managing through fear rather than managing by fear.

It's a rather short quote. Just let readers themselves decide.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Lol, and when the Chinese didn't buy enough the Fed created tens of billions of dollars a month to buy them from the Treasury, dollars created out of hot air.

This is the world where any intellectual reasoning is rejected. BTW, years later Samuelson wrote another column where he said it was absurd to blame China for all of the US's problems. You have to wonder how do these people have a job.
 
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