Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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I would share a bit more since you are at least open minded over this whole democratic debate.

There is a background and history to actually understand the driving force behind the democratic push in HK. We will have to go back to more than 30 years when the reality sank in that HK would be reverting to China in 1997. When reversion became apparent there were widespread panic in HK with property prices and stock market plummeting and basically anyone who was able to was planning to flee. When Chairman Deng said to Thatcher that China can anytime walk in and just take back HK and there is nothing that Britain can do about it, Thatcher famously made the remark that Mr. Chairman you can certainly do so but that HK would not be worth a dime to China. Chairman Deng understood this point very well. In essence the 1984 joint Sino British declaration was birth out of this clear understanding that HK as a financial centre needs to be preserved and the basis that has underpinned its success was the rule of law, transparency and accountability. The principle of universal suffrage was the ultimate goal to preserve a foundation to that success. The joint agreement of a democratic process was the key in stabilising HK people's concern at that time on the notion that an established democratic process would ensure continuity of the rule of law, transparency and accountability that has been a source of HK's prosperity against a communist regime which was an unknown at that time.

The idea of a Trojan horse or the constant gripe that Britain did not introduce a democratic process until the takeover are based on ignorance of the reasoning that went into the joint declaration. That same reasoning of ensuring a democratic process that would underpin rule of law, transparency and accountability remains true today as it was 30 years ago even though it is pretty much watered down.


I don't have an opinion as to whether the whole democratic process was a trojan horse by Britain or not, and just for the record that wasn't what I meant by "western influence".

As for transparency, accountability, and rule of law -- efforts to preserve it in HK's case (or aspire to it, in China's case) must also be balanced with a sharp eye on maintaining strategic interests and sovereignty. The two groups are not inherently incompatible with each other, but attempts for democratic reform should be guarded against if they have the potential to threaten strategic interests and sovereignty either immediately or down the line.

On the whole Deng-Thatcher exchange, I think Deng would've used a military option even if it mean HK would be worth nothing to China after. The big reason for reclaiming HK was history and sovereignty, not the economic benefits HK would provide.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
A friend of mine today said that had the thugs not shown up, the numbers probably would have died down then ended with a nice closure.


But you don't know that for sure. That's just speculation, beside who you are you to define the anti OC people as "thugs"? They might even see the OC as the real thug by disrupting their way of life. They are people too and living in Hong Kong that doesn't mean they should not have a say about it.
 
No it doesn't. Evolution of places and people happens all the time. Who said that it must be preserve at all cost or else it becomes "empty"? You make it sound like HK had ONLY one character.

Yes evolutions happen, but depending on the conditions, they arrive at their own various predicted models of scenarios. In these words, this also means if there's a huge flux of immigrants with cultures different to the indigenous group entering a society at one time, cultural shock, tensions, and conflict are inevitable until eventually they work themselves out. This period of tension, conflict in itself is also a phase of so-called evolution.
 

Brumby

Major
No it doesn't. Evolution of places and people happens all the time. Who said that it must be preserve at all cost or else it becomes "empty"? You make it sound like HK had ONLY one character.

I suspect you do not understand what I have posted by the nature of your question and statements. I suspect we are talking on different frequencies.
 

ABC78

Junior Member
China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy

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China is Hong Kong’s future – not its enemy

Martin Jacques

Protesters cry democracy but most are driven by dislocation and resentment at mainlanders’ success

The upheaval sweeping Hong Kong is more complicated than on the surface it might appear. Protests have erupted over direct elections to be held in three years’ time; democracy activists claim that China’s plans will allow it to screen out the candidates it doesn’t want.

It should be remembered, however, that for 155 years until its handover to China in 1997, Hong Kong was a British colony, forcibly taken from China at the end of the first opium war. All its 28 subsequent governors were appointed by the British government. Although Hong Kong came, over time, to enjoy the rule of law and the right to protest, under the British it never enjoyed even a semblance of democracy. It was ruled from 6,000 miles away in London. The idea of any kind of democracy was first introduced by the Chinese government. In 1990 the latter adopted the Basic Law, which included the commitment that in 2017 the territory’s chief executive would be elected by universal suffrage; it also spelt out that the nomination of candidates would be a matter for a nominating committee.

This proposal should be seen in the context of what was a highly innovative – and, to westerners, completely unfamiliar – constitutional approach by the Chinese. The idea of “one country, two systems” under which Hong Kong would maintain its distinctive legal and political system for 50 years. Hong Kong would, in these respects, remain singularly different from the rest of China, while at the same time being subject to Chinese sovereignty. In contrast, the western view has always embraced the principle of “one country, one system” – as, for example, in German unification. But China is more a civilisation-state than a nation-state: historically it would have been impossible to hold together such a vast country without allowing much greater flexibility. Its thinking – “one civilisation, many systems” – was shaped by its very different history.

In the 17 years since the handover, China has, whatever the gainsayers might suggest, overwhelmingly honoured its commitment to the principle of one country, two systems. The legal system remains based on English law, the rule of law prevails, and the right to demonstrate, as we have seen so vividly in recent days, is still very much intact. The Chinese meant what they offered. Indeed, it can reasonably be argued that they went to extremes in their desire to be unobtrusive: sotto voce might be an apt way of describing China’s approach to Hong Kong. At the time of the handover, and in the three years I lived in Hong Kong from 1998, it was difficult to identify any visible signs of Chinese rule: I recall seeing just one Chinese flag.

Notwithstanding this, Hong Kong – and its relationship with China – was in fact changing rapidly. Herein lies a fundamental reason for the present unrest: the growing sense of dislocation among a section of Hong Kong’s population. During the 20 years or so prior to the handover, the territory enjoyed its golden era – not because of the British but because of the Chinese. In 1978 Deng Xiaoping embarked on his reform programme, and China began to grow rapidly. It was still, however, a relatively closed society. Hong Kong was the beneficiary – it became the entry point to China, and as a result attracted scores of multinational companies and banks that wanted to gain access to the Chinese market. Hong Kong got rich because of China. It also fed an attitude of hubris and arrogance. The Hong Kong Chinese came to enjoy a much higher standard of living than the mainlanders. They looked down on the latter as poor, ignorant and uncouth peasants, as greatly their inferior. They preferred – up to a point – to identify with westerners rather than mainlanders, not because of democracy (the British had never allowed them any) but primarily because of money and the status that went with it.

Much has changed since 1997. The Chinese economy has grown many times, the standard of living of the Chinese likewise. If you want to access the Chinese market nowadays, why move to Hong Kong when you can go straight to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Chengdu and a host of other major cities? Hong Kong has lost its role as the gateway to China. Where previously Hong Kong was China’s unrivalled financial centre, now it is increasingly dwarfed by Shanghai. Until recently, Hong Kong was by far China’s largest port: now it has been surpassed by Shanghai and Shenzhen, and Guangzhou will shortly overtake it.

Two decades ago westerners comprised the bulk of Hong Kong’s tourists, today mainlanders account for the overwhelming majority, many of them rather more wealthy than most Hong Kong Chinese. Likewise, an increasing number of mainlanders have moved to the territory – which is a growing source of resentment. If China needed Hong Kong in an earlier period, this is no longer nearly as true as it was. On the contrary, without China, Hong Kong would be in deep trouble.

Understandably, many Hong Kong Chinese are struggling to come to terms with these new realities. They are experiencing a crisis of identity and a sense of displacement. They know their future is inextricably bound up with China but that is very different from embracing the fact. Yet there is no alternative: China is the future of Hong Kong.

All these issues, in a most complex way, are being played out in the present arguments over universal suffrage. Hong Kong is divided. About half the population support China’s proposals on universal suffrage, either because they think they are a step forward or because they take the pragmatic view that they will happen anyway. The other half is opposed. A relatively small minority of these have never really accepted Chinese sovereignty. Anson Chan, the former head of the civil service under Chris Patten, and Jimmy Lai, a prominent businessman, fall into this category, and so do some of the Democrats. Then there is a much larger group, among them many students, who oppose Beijing’s plans for more idealistic reasons.

One scenario can be immediately discounted. China will not accept the election of a chief executive hostile to Chinese rule. If the present unrest continues, then a conceivable backstop might be to continue indefinitely with the status quo, which, from the point of view of democratic change, both in Hong Kong and China, would be a retrograde step. More likely is that the Chinese government will persist with its proposals, perhaps with minor concessions, and anticipate that the opposition will slowly abate. This remains the most likely scenario.

An underlying weakness of Chinese rule has nevertheless been revealed by these events. One of the most striking features of Hong Kong remains the relative absence of a mainland political presence. The Chinese have persisted with what can best be described as a hands-off approach. Their relationship to the administration is either indirect or behind the scenes. Strange as it may seem, the Chinese are not involved in the cut and thrust of political argument. They will need to find more effective ways of making their views clear and arguing their case – not in Beijing but in Hong Kong.
 
But you don't know that for sure. That's just speculation, beside who you are you to define the anti OC people as "thugs"? They might even see the OC as the real thug by disrupting their way of life. They are people too and living in Hong Kong that doesn't mean they should not have a say about it.

I've made it pretty clear it's a speculation didn't I?

Oh and I'm referring specifically to the thugs amongst the anti-OC crowd. I'm not referring the others as thugs because there are some who are legitimate business owners and other people. For example, one guy who grabbed a female student's thigh was later identified as owner of a restaurant.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
One thing I will say is, I don't trust the HKSAR government at all (like the other 49% in a survey recently conducted by HKU), so my views of them will be a lot more cynic and full of conspiracy or even bias.


Well the same can be said about me and some of us who does NOT trust the OC movement and their prefer candidates (if they have it their way) as well.
 

Brumby

Major
The big reason for reclaiming HK was history and sovereignty, not the economic benefits HK would provide.

I agree. The primary driver was sovereignty and the reason why China was prepared to go to war over it. Once that was out of the way, it became a matter of how best to preserve the goose.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I've made it pretty clear it's a speculation didn't I?

Oh and I'm referring specifically to the thugs amongst the anti-OC crowd. I'm not referring the others as thugs because there are some who are legitimate business owners and other people. For example, one guy who grabbed a female student's thigh was later identified as owner of a restaurant.


Than why disrupt the livelihood of those business owners and the many people that depends on it by causing such raucous to begin with?
 

delft

Brigadier
heeeelll no, but i think this is a really good way to challenge Beijing without being accused of negating the rule of law. but with 2017 closing in quickly i wonder if HK's superior court can process this case in time.
As the ultimate authority lies with Beijing I don't suppose the HK supreme court can have a say in the matter.
 
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