Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Blackstone

Brigadier
i wonder if we can consider this an ultimatum.

but why can't Leung offer a compromise? maybe ask the protesters to remain on one side of the building and have government workers enter and leave from the back door... would be a reasonable offer.

Bloodless compromise is the best solution, but does anyone even know what the protesters want? It certainly isn't the "rule of law," because several posters here on SDF have linked the exact text of Basic Law that shows Bejing has basically honored the handover agreement. So, if it isn't rule of law, what then do the protesters want? Also, will the different factions support whatever compromises the OC leadership negotiate? Or will there be blood on the streets?
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Bloodless compromise is the best solution, but does anyone even know what the protesters want? It certainly isn't the "rule of law," because several posters here on SDF have linked the exact text of Basic Law that shows Bejing has basically honored the handover agreement. So, if it isn't rule of law, what then do the protesters want? Also, will the different factions support whatever compromises the OC leadership negotiate? Or will there be blood on the streets?

well here i am not seeking a compromise to resolve the whole issue, but to restore order to HK by monday morning. the government is already exercising restraint, as embodied in their choice of words "restore order". they didn't say protest is no longer allowed, so as long as OC allow government workers to go to work on monday morning, i dont think there is any problem with them continuing with the protest.
 

Brumby

Major
It seems to me the conduct of the police in HK now is more civilized than that of the then Amsterdam police.

In a world of social media with FB, Twitter and whatever there is transparency and that modifies behaviour because of accountability. This is unfortunately a lost message in the OC movement because truly elected vs. appointed CE have different accountabilities.
 

Brumby

Major
A little over half the seats are made up of geographical constituencies and half are made up of "functional" constituencies which represent different industries or lines of work. Reps for the geographical constituencies are elected by popular vote while reps for the functional constituencies are elected by a mix of one person one vote within the qualified population, and block votes by corporations, associations, guilds, and unions.

To say that this arrangement is wrong and bad for Hong Kong because it might lean pro-Beijing assumes:
1. the functional constituencies vote in line with Beijing's plans just because they are Beijing's plans
2. the functional constituencies vote counter to Hong Kong's interests
3. whatever plans Beijing has for Hong Kong is bad

Such as system gives more weight to those who contribute more to society while also providing for directly elected reps and co-ordination with the national government. It also allows for multiple political parties. It is definitely a republican system with democratic elements, which is how most modern "democracies" are structured.

If these protesters are unhappy with this arrangement the first people they should protest against are the functional constituencies who are made up of other local citizens rather than the CE, HKSAR, or Beijing or the CE election process. The fact that these protesters do not protest against the functional constituencies directly mean that they either:
1. don't understand how or why the system works the way it does
2. don't have the courage to confront those next to them who they assume are the ones who directly fail them
3. is only looking to target the CE, HKSAR, or Beijing all along

Your reasoning is sound until you do the maths and align them to the facts on the ground.

As you said there are two components from which the 1200 members of the Nomination Committee get selected i.e. geographical and functional.

In a true democratic election with multi parties trying to get elected as in the geographical component which best reflects it, the realistic case is securing 60 % of seats there are available. The functional component which are predominantly commerce base will typically toe Beijing's line due to economic interest. So when the maths are done, the pro democracy camp will probably end up with around 35 % of the 1200 seat committee. This was what got a pro democracy candidate onto the ballot in the prior election. Guess what Beijing did in the 2014 NPC? Beijing shifted the goal post from (30% or 1/3) to at least 50% endorsement from the 1200 member committee to get candidate on to the ballot. This change was what prompted the OC movement to act as effectively this is just creating the illusion of democracy but in fact is fake as the locals called it.
 
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Brumby

Major
It certainly isn't the "rule of law," because several posters here on SDF have linked the exact text of Basic Law that shows Bejing has basically honored the handover agreement. So, if it isn't rule of law, what then do the protesters want?

Quoting text doesn't explain anything because the problem is the selective choice of text and interpretation of its meaning. You have to take the relevant sections for completeness (not selective) and then align this to recent political development to understand the issues. Refer to my earlier post #814.
 

MightySnake

Just Hatched
Registered Member
[video=youtube;6DUDWUdj6_Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DUDWUdj6_Q[/video][video=youtube;aUrnZG7XjNk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUrnZG7XjNk[/video]

Some videos from the clashes between the OC and anti-OC demonstrators, in Causeway Bay.
 

MightySnake

Just Hatched
Registered Member
[video=youtube;NGOW0wxHvJE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGOW0wxHvJE[/video]

The message of the anti-OC guys (the elderly ones) is: "I have to take care of my family, I need to earn money, why are you blocking the road. My children can´t go to school because of you. Who are you to block the road, it is none of your right. You have never had to feed a family. We are also HKers. Get off. Etc."
 
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superdog

Junior Member
Hong Kong is way past its prime, whether it is headed by a democratic government or not. But things aren't grim. We still have China. If they are not so brainwashed and conditioned to hate on China, they would have seen the opportunities in China like the rest of the world do. Unfortunately, while the world are happily making money in/with China, our youth are stuck in a Cold War mentality that is beyond reason and logic. They fiercely defend their proud Cantonese heritage, and refuse to learn anything about China, discounting them as "brainwash education". Reluctant to work in China or aboard, they are firmly stuck in Hong Kong, choosing to complain about the lack of opportunities instead.
This is the main reason why I'm not siding with the directions of OC. Hong Kong has no future if they keep isolating themselves from the mainland. Our only hope of maintaining some economic prosperity in the long run is through deeper economic integration with the mainland. An integration like that will inevitably require closer political and cultural ties, which many youths in HK are now desperately trying to avoid. To me this is a sign that they have completely lost their confidence as a generation because of HK's decline. They fear they will lose their job, lose their lifestyle, lose their culture, even their language, because they are now facing equal competition from the north, more equal than ever.

I have a sense that democracy, "universal suffrage", and all the conspiracy theories about CCP was more of a symbol in the collective consciousness that reflected this deeply unsettling fear. This was evident by how they reacted to social issues. When faced with challenges during this relationship shift with the mainland (e.g. tourism, immigration, housing), they seek to alienate and antagonize much more than they seek to adapt and resolve. I don't think it was wrong for them to seek more political powers per se, because people are suffering and they have very good reasons to demand change. Unfortunately, they don't have the right idea about how to change, they didn't get that change should start from within, from how they will see a bigger picture of HK's future, from how they must first gain the inner strength and open attitude to face a whole new level of competition.

Economic transitions for a city over its prime are always tough, but universal suffrage don't necessarily prevent universal suffering. In fact I believe it could make things worse if the city continue to be politically polarized, as an electoral battle with an unrestricted spectrum of nominees could fuel even more internal split. Beijing also has a legitimate concern that a completely unrestricted election in a polarized and historically anti-CCP atmosphere could result in a leader that doesn't truly pledge allegiance to the PRC. This leader may not have the mutual trust to work with the central government (not as a puppet, but at least as a local government official), and that will definitely hamper HK's economic recovery, if not the region's political stability. General election was an important tool that could be and have been used for good, but unlike many people in HK I never believed it was the universal and ultimate answer to true democracy.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Quoting text doesn't explain anything because the problem is the selective choice of text and interpretation of its meaning. You have to take the relevant sections for completeness (not selective) and then align this to recent political development to understand the issues. Refer to my earlier post #814.

I read your post, and it has one huge problem; you don't want to accept Beijing's interpretation of the text, but you want Beijing to live by your interpretation, even if Beijing isn't cheating on Basic Law. That sounds suspiciously like "my way of the highway." Would anything other than a majority of non-pro Beijing satisfy the demonstrators?
 

texx1

Junior Member
Your reasoning is sound until you do the maths and align them to the facts on the ground.

As you said there are two components from which the 1200 members of the Nomination Committee get selected i.e. geographical and functional.

In a true democratic election with multi parties trying to get elected as in the geographical component which best reflects it, the realistic case is securing 60 % of seats there are available. The functional component which are predominantly commerce base will typically toe Beijing's line due to economic interest. So when the maths are done, the pro democracy camp will probably end up with around 35 % of the 1200 seat committee. This was what got a pro democracy candidate onto the ballot in the prior election. Guess what Beijing did in the 2014 NPC? Beijing shifted the goal post from (30% or 1/3) to at least 50% endorsement from the 1200 member committee to get candidate on to the ballot. This change was what prompted the OC movement to act as effectively this is just creating the illusion of democracy but in fact is fake as the locals called it.

All current democracies in the world can be considered as merely illusions of democracy. Only direct democracy is true democracy where everyone votes on issue directly. As for HK,

1) Business people vote with their wallet in every country so toeing Beijing's line is a rational choice. If some other party other than Beijing can guarantee their economic interests in HK as well as helping them flourish, they would change their voting habits. Would you please enlighten us as to which party you believe that is capable of replacing Beijing's role in HK's economy?

2) Even if OC protesters wanted to change the method of selecting HK chief executive, Basic Law explicitly states they have to ask Standing Committees of National People's congress for approval which means Beijing has the final word.

Basic Law Annex I #7: Method for the Selection of the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region

#7 If there is a need to amend the method for selecting the Chief Executives for the terms subsequent to the year 2007, such amendments must be made with the endorsement of a two-thirds majority of all the members of the Legislative Council and the consent of the Chief Executive, and they shall be reported to the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress for approval.

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