Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Brumby

Major
Beijing's strategy had been to wait them out in the first place, or at least since 28 Sept after the violent encounter. so far what we are seeing is probably the optimal scenario that Beijing has hoped for. after all we are talking about a regime that came to being on mass movements (albeit of a different form) and almost succumbed to it twice, the OC movement's leaders are mere amateurs compared to it. I dont know if many HK residence will wholeheartedly support the new election law but i feel they will certainly become extremely averse to any challenge to the status quo in the future.

I concur with your assessment. I think those who make those statements of Beijing intervention do not understand the political dynamics on the ground and the game plan of the players especially Beijing.

The primary outcome Beijing aims for in this whole debacle in my view is a peaceful resolution and quickly if possible. This whole show is an image cultivation exercise for Beijing to the world that Beijing is tolerant, acts with restrain and is upholding the promises of the Basic Law even under extreme provocation. Why would Beijing act especially calling in the PLA? It is a ridiculous notion unless the HKSAR administration totally screws up. We potentially saw that when they called in the riot squad and start using tear gas and pepper spray on the students. That quickly changed public opinion but they were wise enough to withdraw the riot squad. That must have cost Beijing some anxious moments. Beijing's main game plan is to stay on the sideline while officially offering complete support to HKSAR. In other words, the best strategy is to do nothing directly.

The OC movement made a strategic mistake of occupying Causeway Bay and Mong Kok. That eventually frustrated the business community which until the occupation was probably neutral. Beijing could see some sections of the population starting to push back. I think that was the tipping point and the OC movement had its moment but lost it. The other problem is that they have no end game plan besides pressing on.

The HKSAR game plan in my view is containment and to let the steam out from the student movement and then isolate them into a smaller section of Central where they can continue without causing too much disruption to the rest of the public. Eventually the hope is that they will run out of steam and purpose and just pack up and go home. I think the isolation strategy will come into play should the OC refuses to budge. The challenge for the authorities is to achieve the isolation and containment goal without screwing up i.e. using minimal force and not swaying public opinion.

The OC movement should recognise reality and adapt by doing the following :
(i)Tactically withdraw from Mong Kok and Causeway Bay if not already happening. This ensures immediate safety of the more vulnerable sections of the movement; reduces tension with the business community and general population; and most importantly consolidate their resources for a last stand in Central.
(ii)They have been terrible with messaging and PR. They need to step up and play the same game as Beijing i.e. projecting the necessary image and message to as broad a community as possible. There is no main spokesperson, no central message, and no updates.
(iii)Be prepared as there will be a lockdown including isolation of communication when the authorities move in. They should identify a refuge location to carry on within rule of law. If it becomes a long haul protest then they should adapt and rotate resources rather than concentrating resources
(iv)Have a set of plan B demands should the opportunity be there to negotiate.
 

Brumby

Major
I read your post, and it has one huge problem; you don't want to accept Beijing's interpretation of the text, but you want Beijing to live by your interpretation, even if Beijing isn't cheating on Basic Law. That sounds suspiciously like "my way of the highway." Would anything other than a majority of non-pro Beijing satisfy the demonstrators?

I am just merely stating the facts as I see it in terms of what is driving the OC movement. There is no demand for non-pro Beijing majority. They want a system that sets a reasonable hurdle and not an impossible obstacle. The previous standard was 30 % or 1/3 (not sure which) but Beijing changed the goal post because one ball managed to get through. So it is not "my way or the highway" it is "no way".
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I concur with your assessment. I think those who make those statements of Beijing intervention do not understand the political dynamics on the ground and the game plan of the players especially Beijing.

The primary outcome Beijing aims for in this whole debacle in my view is a peaceful resolution and quickly if possible. This whole show is an image cultivation exercise for Beijing to the world that Beijing is tolerant, acts with restrain and is upholding the promises of the Basic Law even under extreme provocation. Why would Beijing act especially calling in the PLA? It is a ridiculous notion unless the HKSAR administration totally screws up. We potentially saw that when they called in the riot squad and start using tear gas and pepper spray on the students. That quickly changed public opinion but they were wise enough to withdraw the riot squad. That must have cost Beijing some anxious moments. Beijing's main game plan is to stay on the sideline while officially offering complete support to HKSAR. In other words, the best strategy is to do nothing directly.

The OC movement made a strategic mistake of occupying Causeway Bay and Mong Kok. That eventually frustrated the business community which until the occupation was probably neutral. Beijing could see some sections of the population starting to push back. I think that was the tipping point and the OC movement had its moment but lost it. The other problem is that they have no end game plan besides pressing on.

The HKSAR game plan in my view is containment and to let the steam out from the student movement and then isolate them into a smaller section of Central where they can continue without causing too much disruption to the rest of the public. Eventually the hope is that they will run out of steam and purpose and just pack up and go home. I think the isolation strategy will come into play should the OC refuses to budge. The challenge for the authorities is to achieve the isolation and containment goal without screwing up i.e. using minimal force and not swaying public opinion.

The OC movement should recognise reality and adapt by doing the following :
(i)Tactically withdraw from Mong Kok and Causeway Bay if not already happening. This ensures immediate safety of the more vulnerable sections of the movement; reduces tension with the business community and general population; and most importantly consolidate their resources for a last stand in Central.
(ii)They have been terrible with messaging and PR. They need to step up and play the same game as Beijing i.e. projecting the necessary image and message to as broad a community as possible. There is no main spokesperson, no central message, and no updates.
(iii)Be prepared as there will be a lockdown including isolation of communication when the authorities move in. They should identify a refuge location to carry on within rule of law. If it becomes a long haul protest then they should adapt and rotate resources rather than concentrating resources
(iv)Have a set of plan B demands should the opportunity be there to negotiate.

agreed, and with plan B demands i suggest hiring some lawyers to poke holes in the Basic Law, better if they get a few drafters lmao
 

Brumby

Major
All current democracies in the world can be considered as merely illusions of democracy. Only direct democracy is true democracy where everyone votes on issue directly. As for HK,

1) Business people vote with their wallet in every country so toeing Beijing's line is a rational choice. If some other party other than Beijing can guarantee their economic interests in HK as well as helping them flourish, they would change their voting habits. Would you please enlighten us as to which party you believe that is capable of replacing Beijing's role in HK's economy?

You hit the nail. True universal suffrage means the people decide and then make the choice. So let the people make the choice if you truly believe that voters based solely their decision on economic interest. As is, only candidates filtered by Beijing can get on the ballot. Others are locked out by the system and hence the whole essence of the protest - allow the people a choice unencumbered.
2) Even if OC protesters wanted to change the method of selecting HK chief executive, Basic Law explicitly states they have to ask Standing Committees of National People's congress for approval which means Beijing has the final word.

Basic Law Annex I #7: Method for the Selection of the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region

What else do you think the protest is about other than to get Beijing to change the rules according to the framework of the Basic Law? Don't forget Beijing just changed the rules in the 2014 NPC session which was the genesis of the protest.
 

Brumby

Major
agreed, and with plan B demands i suggest hiring some lawyers to poke holes in the Basic Law, better if they get a few drafters lmao

Seriously. I give you credit that you actually knows what you are talking about. The issue is not the Basic Law per se but interpretation and you and I know that is totally in the hands of Beijing.
 
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texx1

Junior Member
You hit the nail. True universal suffrage means the people decide and then make the choice. So let the people make the choice if you truly believe that voters based solely their decision on economic interest. As is, only candidates filtered by Beijing can get on the ballot. Others are locked out by the system and hence the whole essence of the protest - allow the people a choice unencumbered.


What else do you think the protest is about other than to get Beijing to change the rules according to the framework of the Basic Law? Don't forget Beijing just changed the rules in the 2014 NPC session which was the genesis of the protest.

What makes you think Beijing would just bow down to teenager protesters' demand when there is considerable anti-OC feelings in HK as several posters here have already pointed out?

What makes you think Beijing would grant HK more autonomy when there is a clear undertone of separatist sentiment within some segments of OC movements?

Even if we believe the most optimistic reported numbers of OC protesters which is about 400,000 people, that's only about 5.7 % of the 7 million HK people, hardly a majority.

In the event that Beijing actually considers OC protesters' demands, they will no doubt be asking themselves whether political uncertainty in HK would be worth for some goodwills from a segment that doesn't like them anyway?
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
I am just merely stating the facts as I see it in terms of what is driving the OC movement. There is no demand for non-pro Beijing majority. They want a system that sets a reasonable hurdle and not an impossible obstacle. The previous standard was 30 % or 1/3 (not sure which) but Beijing changed the goal post because one ball managed to get through. So it is not "my way or the highway" it is "no way".

Do you know if Beijing has the right under Basic Laws to change previous standards to new, tougher standards? If it doesn't, then demonstrators has a good reason to protest. If not, then they're indeed trying to have it their way or the highway.
 

Brumby

Major
What makes you think Beijing would just bow down to teenager protesters' demand when there is considerable anti-OC feelings in HK as several posters here have already pointed out?

What makes you think Beijing would grant HK more autonomy when there is a clear undertone of separatist sentiment within some segments of OC movements?

Even if we believe the most optimistic reported numbers of OC protesters which is about 400,000 people, that's only about 5.7 % of the 7 million HK people, hardly a majority.

I did not implicitly or explicitly suggest any of those things you posted. My comments has no relevancy to them.
 

Brumby

Major
Do you know if Beijing has the right under Basic Laws to change previous standards to new, tougher standards?

Categorically yes.

If it doesn't, then demonstrators has a good reason to protest. If not, then they're indeed trying to have it their way or the highway.

It boils down to interpretation on the meaning of universal suffrage. Beijing's view is it is with Chinese characteristics but the OC's view is universal meaning. Please don't go into a debate over what is universal because it is a pointless exercise.
 

texx1

Junior Member
I did not implicitly or explicitly suggest any of those things you posted. My comments has no relevancy to them.

What you or I or anyone here personally believes has no real meaningful bearings on the outcome of this protest. It's up to Beijing to decide. Since you have been leaning towards the notion that Beijing should grant OC protesters' demand, letting HKers choose for themselves, I am merely curious as to what you consider to be actual tangible benefits for Beijing to grant this request when there are some major negatives such as potential threat to China's territorial integrity.
 
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