Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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I'm so confused right now. My dad just came in and talked about investing in another property, but said there's a chance that house prices will drop cuz of this event. I told him I have mixed feelings. One part is that this means others in HK can then have a chance to buy properties, while this could affect us(honestly I don't feel too bad about this, because he said we've got couple properties, and I feel not only are we stable, but also we've got enough, so I wanted others to have a chance). He then said how people only see CY is bad, but hey at least housing prices are climbing! So that means good economy! I then said but others aren't able to buy houses, then he kinda dismissed it saying he doesn't believe everyone has only that little and we won't wanna live in public housing do we. Anyways it didn't make too much sense, but he dismissed it and I also didn't want to dispute it because we had argued over what's happening in HK twice, and personally I'm so exhausted in debating this with everyone. Once again, the entire city is split over both perspectives.

I honestly totally can see the desires for stability by those who are stable, but I start to feel this also adds onto why there's a huge discrepancy of opinions between those who support and those who are against. The wage discrimination is so unforgiving, you either make it or you don't, and when the majority of people are making around $18,000/a for a $5m unit and we're talking about a normal distribution where 67% are in that bracket(not to mention the 50% BELOW on the left side of the parabola + 16.1% at the far left), that means you have to belong in the far right tier percentile to get away from this mess. I'm fortunate to be brought up in a family where my dad does business and makes a lot of money, but that's not the same story for everyone, and the simple majority again reflects that's not their case. Knowing I have friends who will have to go through these, thinking about these can really kill my sleep at night.

One shan't have to work 2 jobs as a middle income bloke in order to support a housing, if that's actually enough that is.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like things might be coming to a head next Monday, because Hong Kong officials have ordered protesters to clear streets and accesses to schools and government buildings. I'm suspicious elements in OC would incite violence for international TV exposure, so I hope HK authorities consider that if they have to use force to uphold law and order.

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Pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong and the Beijing-backed government appeared to be on a collision course Saturday night as the city’s chief executive issued a stern warning that people should clear the streets and protest leaders staged a defiant rally drawing tens of thousands.

“The most urgent thing is that the government headquarters’ entrances and exits must be kept clear on Monday, so 3,000 government staff can go to work normally and serve citizens,” Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying said in a televised address. “The roads … must no longer be blocked, so all schools can resume classes on Monday.”

Leung took note of violence Friday as opponents of the protests assaulted pro-democracy demonstrators, but he did not directly address demonstrators’ vociferous complaints that police had failed to act forcefully enough to protect them. Police said they arrested 19 people, including eight with links to Triad gangs.

“It was very chaotic, injuring many people, including members from the press,” said Leung. “The government strongly condemns all people’s violent behavior. If the incident continued, it is very likely to keep going out of control, causing serious affect on citizens’ safety and social order.”

But supporters of the movement that has brought traffic to a halt in several key districts of Hong Kong for a week showed no sign of giving in. A massive crowd packed the Admiralty district, where the government headquarters are located, for an 8 p.m. rally.

The rally kicked off with witness accounts, at times emotional, of violence targeting protesters in Mong Kok and Causeway Bay on Friday. But the recollections of pain were soon eclipsed by upbeat performances of songs composed by local stars for the protest movement.

“This is no longer a student movement but a Hong Kong people’s movement,” said Alex Chow, secretary-general of the Hong Kong Federation of Students. “We’re fearless. We’re undaunted.”

The federation presented a united front with the two other groups spearheading the protest, Occupy Central With Peace and Love and the student group Scholarism.

Dennis Kwok, a member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, addressed the crowd and added: “This is the purest form of courage Hong Kong people have shown. This is the kind of courage that will change the politics of this country forever.”

After the rally ended, Chow spoke to reporters shortly before midnight and said volunteer “stewards” would be on the lookout for any indications that police were preparing to move in and clear protesters by force. Chow appeared to leave the door open for talks, however, though not under conditions laid out by Leung.

Hong Kong, a former British colony, was returned to Chinese rule in 1997 and promised a high degree of autonomy for 50 years under a framework known as “one country, two systems.”

The protesters have taken to the streets to demand the reversal of guidelines for the 2017 election that were issued by mainland authorities last month. The framework would, for the first time, allow Hong Kong’s 5 million eligible voters to cast ballots for the chief executive but said the number of candidates would be limited to two or three and would have to be approved by a Beijing-backed screening committee.

The demonstrators have derided that requirement as “fake democracy.”

The protests, launched last weekend, were met last Sunday with strong police reaction. Officers fired 87 rounds of tear gas and used pepper spray in an attempt to disperse the massive crowds.

Though Hong Kong has a long tradition of mass rallies, they are typically orderly and are held in a park or follow a designated route, after which attendees disperse. The democracy rallies this week, spontaneous and shutting down major transportation arteries in the heart of the city, have represented an unusual challenge to authorities, even though protesters have been orderly, clean and courteous.

On Thursday, student protest leaders and Leung’s administration appeared to be on the path to negotiations. Besieged by protesters at his office and facing a midnight deadline to resign, Leung said one of his top aides, Carrie Lam, would hold talks with the Federation of Students. Leung refused to resign, however, saying that doing so would derail efforts to bring universal suffrage to the semi-autonomous Chinese territory.

But before a time, place and other parameters for discussions could be worked out, violence erupted Friday as opponents of the pro-democracy demonstrations set upon a sit-in in the densely packed, working class commercial district of Mong Kok and other areas.

Angry men ripped down canopies and other equipment that the democracy protesters had set up at the key intersection of Nathan Road and Argyle Street. Police arrived and spent hours trying to keep the two sides apart, but scuffles broke out and punches were thrown.

In wake of the violence, the protest groups said they were suspending plans to talk with the government.

Groups including Amnesty International and the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents Club condemned the violence and police reaction.

"The police inaction tonight is shameful. The authorities have failed in their duty to protect peaceful protesters who came under attack," said Mabel Au, director of Amnesty International Hong Kong.

"There has been a heavy police presence during the past week, but their failure [Friday] risks fueling an increasingly volatile situation."

The journalists’ group said there had been several reported cases of overseas and local reporters being either assaulted or intimidated while covering the demonstrations, including a reporter from Radio Television Hong Kong who was “reportedly beaten by police.”

“No one has so far been arrested, to the best of our knowledge, and in one case police were observed leading an alleged assailant to a taxi instead of making an arrest,” the correspondents’ club said. “There have also been allegations that officers have taken away alleged assailants, only to release them within minutes.”

Disappointment with the police actions Friday seemed to be galvanizing some supporters of the movement.

“This government really is doing some crazy things,” said Ady Li, a fashion design student who was making signs Saturday afternoon in Admirality. “I can’t understand the police response yesterday.”

“We are peaceful, but these people came in and hit and pushed students and police didn’t do anything,” said Jayce Lau, who was hanging a banner in Admiralty. Its message: “Desire for true democracy will not be defeated by police-mob collaboration and paid thugs.”
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I honestly totally can see the desires for stability by those who are stable, but I start to feel this also adds onto why there's a huge discrepancy of opinions between those who support and those who are against. The wage discrimination is so unforgiving, you either make it or you don't, and when the majority of people are making around $18,000/a for a $5m unit and we're talking about a normal distribution where 67% are in that bracket(not to mention the 50% BELOW on the left side of the parabola + 16.1% at the far left), that means you have to belong in the far right tier percentile to get away from this mess. I'm fortunate to be brought up in a family where my dad does business and makes a lot of money, but that's not the same story for everyone, and the simple majority again reflects that's not their case. Knowing I have friends who will have to go through these, thinking about these can really kill my sleep at night.

One shan't have to work 2 jobs as a middle income bloke in order to support a housing, if that's actually enough that is.
OC protesters want "democracy" and freedom to choose, but they also want guarantees of outcome? Well, who do you propose pay for the workers' paradise? At the end of the day, someone has to pay for things others want, but can't or wouldn't pay. Oh wait! Let's make the rich pay! But, what happens when the rich vote with their feet and leave? Make the almost-rich pay! Make the upper-middle class pay! Make the middle class pay! Make everyone else pay, because I'm entitled to everything you have!

That's the real world.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I'm so confused right now. My dad just came in and talked about investing in another property, but said there's a chance that house prices will drop cuz of this event. I told him I have mixed feelings. One part is that this means others in HK can then have a chance to buy properties, while this could affect us(honestly I don't feel too bad about this, because he said we've got couple properties, and I feel not only are we stable, but also we've got enough, so I wanted others to have a chance). He then said how people only see CY is bad, but hey at least housing prices are climbing! So that means good economy! I then said but others aren't able to buy houses, then he kinda dismissed it saying he doesn't believe everyone has only that little and we won't wanna live in public housing do we. Anyways it didn't make too much sense, but he dismissed it and I also didn't want to dispute it because we had argued over what's happening in HK twice, and personally I'm so exhausted in debating this with everyone. Once again, the entire city is split over both perspectives.

I honestly totally can see the desires for stability by those who are stable, but I start to feel this also adds onto why there's a huge discrepancy of opinions between those who support and those who are against. The wage discrimination is so unforgiving, you either make it or you don't, and when the majority of people are making around $18,000/a for a $5m unit and we're talking about a normal distribution where 67% are in that bracket(not to mention the 50% BELOW on the left side of the parabola + 16.1% at the far left), that means you have to belong in the far right tier percentile to get away from this mess. I'm fortunate to be brought up in a family where my dad does business and makes a lot of money, but that's not the same story for everyone, and the simple majority again reflects that's not their case. Knowing I have friends who will have to go through these, thinking about these can really kill my sleep at night.

One shan't have to work 2 jobs as a middle income bloke in order to support a housing, if that's actually enough that is.

i suspect that you are currently in school and are not working yet, please confirm if this is true. i can confidently say that your dad's way of thinking is the majority...at least among adults. i remember my colleague once said this about our line of work "we join for all the right reasons and stay for all the wrong reasons". while your concern for the greater good is admirable, i say you would understand the world a lil better by being a bit more "selfish". trust me though, it wont be long before you are thinking more like your dad.
 

ancestral

New Member
I'm so confused right now. My dad just came in and talked about investing in another property, but said there's a chance that house prices will drop cuz of this event. I told him I have mixed feelings. One part is that this means others in HK can then have a chance to buy properties, while this could affect us(honestly I don't feel too bad about this, because he said we've got couple properties, and I feel not only are we stable, but also we've got enough, so I wanted others to have a chance). He then said how people only see CY is bad, but hey at least housing prices are climbing! So that means good economy! I then said but others aren't able to buy houses, then he kinda dismissed it saying he doesn't believe everyone has only that little and we won't wanna live in public housing do we. Anyways it didn't make too much sense, but he dismissed it and I also didn't want to dispute it because we had argued over what's happening in HK twice, and personally I'm so exhausted in debating this with everyone. Once again, the entire city is split over both perspectives.

I honestly totally can see the desires for stability by those who are stable, but I start to feel this also adds onto why there's a huge discrepancy of opinions between those who support and those who are against. The wage discrimination is so unforgiving, you either make it or you don't, and when the majority of people are making around $18,000/a for a $5m unit and we're talking about a normal distribution where 67% are in that bracket(not to mention the 50% BELOW on the left side of the parabola + 16.1% at the far left), that means you have to belong in the far right tier percentile to get away from this mess. I'm fortunate to be brought up in a family where my dad does business and makes a lot of money, but that's not the same story for everyone, and the simple majority again reflects that's not their case. Knowing I have friends who will have to go through these, thinking about these can really kill my sleep at night.

One shan't have to work 2 jobs as a middle income bloke in order to support a housing, if that's actually enough that is.

Actually, I have this exact problem. Not like you, I don't have a rich dad. I was earning $13,000 per/mo for 3 years working for the pursuit of my ideal. I still don't have my own home, for example.

The difference is I don't blame the government. Sure I hate the real estate tycoons. Sure the government could have built more affordable housing. But I really feel like those youngsters are making outrageous demands. They expect things to be handed to them. They look at things through a pinhole and impose their narrow POV on us, claiming to represent us.

There were a time when people look up to Lee Ka Shing and said, "I want to be him". Those were the days when people worked hard to earn a living. They are the older generation people who helped HK amass the wealth that we have today, the very people who are trying to prevent you guys from destroying their legacy.

Hong Kong is way past its prime, whether it is headed by a democratic government or not. But things aren't grim. We still have China. If they are not so brainwashed and conditioned to hate on China, they would have seen the opportunities in China like the rest of the world do. Unfortunately, while the world are happily making money in/with China, our youth are stuck in a Cold War mentality that is beyond reason and logic. They fiercely defend their proud Cantonese heritage, and refuse to learn anything about China, discounting them as "brainwash education". Reluctant to work in China or aboard, they are firmly stuck in Hong Kong, choosing to complain about the lack of opportunities instead.

When people said they're "proud of our youth" for standing up against the government, my heart weeps. Nothing can be more tragic than a time when stupidity and narrow-mindedness are touted as wise. I feel sad about our youth; and ashamed of the people who mislead and indoctrinate them with distorted facts/one-sided opinions.
 

Franklin

Captain
Looks like things might be coming to a head next Monday, because Hong Kong officials have ordered protesters to clear streets and accesses to schools and government buildings. I'm suspicious elements in OC would incite violence for international TV exposure, so I hope HK authorities consider that if they have to use force to uphold law and order.

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It seems to me that these protesters can't get through their thick skulls that when they are inhibiting people's movement and preventing them from making a living that they are hurting people. As to what will happen on monday we will have to wait and see.

But as this drags on more and more people in HK will be affected by this and they are making more and more enemies amongst the people by the day. In the short run they will get a round of applause from the Western media and the public but in the long run they will face a backclash from their own people.

I wonder what their parents are doing. Shouldn't they be calling on their sons and daughters to return home and go back to school ?
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
I'm so confused right now. My dad just came in and talked about investing in another property, but said there's a chance that house prices will drop cuz of this event. I told him I have mixed feelings. One part is that this means others in HK can then have a chance to buy properties, while this could affect us(honestly I don't feel too bad about this, because he said we've got couple properties, and I feel not only are we stable, but also we've got enough, so I wanted others to have a chance). He then said how people only see CY is bad, but hey at least housing prices are climbing! So that means good economy! I then said but others aren't able to buy houses, then he kinda dismissed it saying he doesn't believe everyone has only that little and we won't wanna live in public housing do we. Anyways it didn't make too much sense, but he dismissed it and I also didn't want to dispute it because we had argued over what's happening in HK twice, and personally I'm so exhausted in debating this with everyone. Once again, the entire city is split over both perspectives.

I honestly totally can see the desires for stability by those who are stable, but I start to feel this also adds onto why there's a huge discrepancy of opinions between those who support and those who are against. The wage discrimination is so unforgiving, you either make it or you don't, and when the majority of people are making around $18,000/a for a $5m unit and we're talking about a normal distribution where 67% are in that bracket(not to mention the 50% BELOW on the left side of the parabola + 16.1% at the far left), that means you have to belong in the far right tier percentile to get away from this mess. I'm fortunate to be brought up in a family where my dad does business and makes a lot of money, but that's not the same story for everyone, and the simple majority again reflects that's not their case. Knowing I have friends who will have to go through these, thinking about these can really kill my sleep at night.

One shan't have to work 2 jobs as a middle income bloke in order to support a housing, if that's actually enough that is.

Now what if your dad didn't make that much, would you still waste your time protesting in the streets while your parents are working 15h/day to make ends meet? Had your dad had simplistic political ideologies when he was young like those students now, would you have the nice life you've enjoyed since your childhood till now?
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Actually, I have this exact problem. Not like you, I don't have a rich dad. I was earning $13,000 per/mo for 3 years working for the pursuit of my ideal. I still don't have my own home, for example.

The difference is I don't blame the government. Sure I hate the real estate tycoons. Sure the government could have built more affordable housing. But I really feel like those youngsters are making outrageous demands. They expect things to be handed to them. They look at things through a pinhole and impose their narrow POV on us, claiming to represent us.

There were a time when people look up to Lee Ka Shing and said, "I want to be him". Those were the days when people worked hard to earn a living. They are the older generation people who helped HK amass the wealth that we have today, the very people who are trying to prevent you guys from destroying their legacy.

Hong Kong is way past its prime, whether it is headed by a democratic government or not. But things aren't grim. We still have China. If they are not so brainwashed and conditioned to hate on China, they would have seen the opportunities in China like the rest of the world do. Unfortunately, while the world are happily making money in/with China, our youth are stuck in a Cold War mentality that is beyond reason and logic. They fiercely defend their proud Cantonese heritage, and refuse to learn anything about China, discounting them as "brainwash education". Reluctant to work in China or aboard, they are firmly stuck in Hong Kong, choosing to complain about the lack of opportunities instead.

When people said they're "proud of our youth" for standing up against the government, my heart weeps. Nothing can be more tragic than a time when stupidity and narrow-mindedness are touted as wise. I feel sad about our youth; and ashamed of the people who mislead and indoctrinate them with distorted facts/one-sided opinions.

lol agreed.

there is one fact that i think airsuperiority should know since he lives in vancouver, youth in Canada in large cities, barring a few fortunate and brilliant ones, are mostly unable to afford buying a house or condo. i will provide a link here on the current conditions of youths in Canada:
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"% of Canadians who filed a tax return in 2009 earned less than $50,000. The average after tax income for families in Canada in 2011 was $79,600, while unattached individuals made an average of $31,400."

by my standard, 31400/year is nowhere near enough to buy a house, I earn way more than this and I am not even contemplating about buying a house in the current toronto market. so democracy or not, youths have it hard these days everywhere.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Looks like things might be coming to a head next Monday, because Hong Kong officials have ordered protesters to clear streets and accesses to schools and government buildings. I'm suspicious elements in OC would incite violence for international TV exposure, so I hope HK authorities consider that if they have to use force to uphold law and order.

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i wonder if we can consider this an ultimatum.

but why can't Leung offer a compromise? maybe ask the protesters to remain on one side of the building and have government workers enter and leave from the back door... would be a reasonable offer.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
It's sounds to me mainlanders again are being blamed for the choices others make. It's like Robert Samuelson of the Washington Post blaming China for the 2008 Western financial crisis. His reasoning... if China didn't buy US treasuries, interest rates wouldn't be low and thus people who couldn't afford houses wouldn't be tempted to get a loan. Yeah but where's the banks' responsibility not to issue a loan to someone who could afford it? So Samuelson just picked one factor, and an extremely indirect one, to lay all the blame on. What ever happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? If the bank didn't decide to give out a loan to someone who couldn't afford it, there would be no property default. But the banks knew the government was going to bail them out which is why they didn't care if someone couldn't afford a loan. The perfect analogy is blaming the responsibility of a drunk driver killing a child with a car on oil companies. If the oil company didn't produce the gas for the drunk driver to be able to drive, the child wouldn't have been struck and killed. If people are blaming Beijing because there's no affordable housing in Hong Kong, then Hong Kongers shouldn't sell to and exploit mainlanders that drive up prices. They can't do it themselves because it would make them look like the bad guy that any civilized true democratic society would see. So they want Beijing to the dirty work for them by directly stopping mainlanders. They were also happy to let Beijing decide the fate of Edward Snowden. Yeah it's easy to believe in your own freedom or someone akin to you. There's nothing heroic about it. The true test is will you put yourself on the line for someone else?


BTW, wasn't Hong Kong under British rule known for poor people living on boats?
 
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