Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Blackstone

Brigadier
Show both sides of the story because you will uncover a lot more than you think you see, believe me. Even amongst the anti-OC there are the good and the bad, and for the pro-OC(I'm more pro-students), we don't have problems with anti-OC in general, just the attackers, those who stand by to let it happen, and the police that are the issues.(and of course CY being the head of evil)

AS, how do the pro-OC people feel about disrupting businesses, especially mom & pop shops, and preventing wage earners from plying their trade? Do they understand many of the people they're harming are their own parents or relatives? Do they have realistic exit strategies? They do realize at some point the protests would either fizzle out, or the authorities would disperse them, with much support from the local people, right? Do they even think about that?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Habeas Corpus is indiscriminatory, and the police are supposed to remain neutral, not have preferential treatment

Police and other law enforcement agencies are suppose to uphold the law, and they shouldn't remain neutral to offenders, simply because they claim "civil disobedience" to justify their actions. If the "OC" protesters observe established HK rules and regulations, then by all means allow them to hold their demonstrations, but if they break said laws, then the authorities have fiduciary duties to use appropriate force to throw their raggedy asses in jail.
 

ancestral

New Member
A little bit about myself. I'm a graduate and a master degree holder from a local university. I consider myself well-educated. I was also a newspaper editor before I decided to start my own business.

Here's what I want to see:

1. What to I want to see after all the shouting is done and the protesters gone home?
I want Hong Kong Basic Law Article 23 be passed so that we can arrest this blatant sellout called Jimmy Lai. He's the root of all evil. There are ample evidence pointing him to instigating chaos and facilitating "National Endowment For Democracy" operations in Hong Kong. We cannot have true democracy and Beijing will not trust us if they don't have some kind of assurance from HK. It will not happen anyway. We're pretty frustrated.

2. What would you and people in your circle want to see?
People in my circle are divided. About 70% of my alumi friends are pro-OC and pro-democracy (them being lawyers, doctors, the educated peeps). My whole family is anti-OC. The people in my region are extremely anti-OC. I fear for their safety if they dare try to come here. Some of them will probably get killed. You have no idea how furious we are.

3. What kind of governance do small and medium business owners want in Hong Kong?
It depends on the demography. People younger than 40 probably want some kind of democracy as well. The concept sounds sweet. "For the people, by the people", who doesn't want that? Before it turns ugly, I even overheard local pharmacies giving anti-OC students a discount for buying face masks. However, things change completely if you guys have no regard for our business environment and occupy our damn streets. I think they made a strategic mistake by occupying MK and CWB.

Back on the topic. No doubt business owners want a stable environment for business. We should take a look at the reality and wake up. HK is not cutting it. Even Lee Ka Shing is retreating from HK along with his investments. Only idiots will let bunch of 17 y/o fool them around. Unfortunately HK has too many of them.

4. Do folks like you feel Beijing's handling of Hong Kong has been fair to the handover agreement?
Fair. Much fairer than under British colonial rule. Unfortunately, ALOT of people seem to suffer from memory lost and think we HAD democracy under British rule. Those are the younger guys who weren't there to witness what's like before 97.

5. If you were old enough to have a HS or college-age kid in the protest, would you order him/her to come home? Wound he/she listen?
I have cousins who're probably still in the OC crowd. Their parents are worried, but speechless when it comes to politics. After all, it's pretty hard to argue against such ideals as "For the people, by the people". If I were their parents, I wouldn't have let that happen. My children would probably in the anti-OC crowd beating up OC peeps.

6. How bad is the situation gonna get?
I think the situation can turn really bad if the OC guys won't let up. Apparently, the triads are not the only people who want to teach the OC guys a harsh lesson. There are massive insult-trading and unfriending happening on Facebook already. Here are the kind of people affected by OC:

Professional Drivers and people related to logistic industry (they can be violent, especially if organized by union)
Business owners (they can be mildly violent)
Triad (they ARE violent)
Parents (they mostly whine)
local residents (they can be dangerous depending on the region)
Normal employees (divided depending on demography)

For their own safety, they should retreat back to Admiralty and leave CWB & MK asap.
 

ahho

Junior Member
I really like how media is always showing Anti-OC and anti-democracy protester side as the 'antagonist', by using words to such as provoke and antagonize. The media really need to show why the anti-side are doing this. A lot of people support democracy even though they might not support the protester. They are fed up with the radicalism of some and the Pan-Democracy side always rejecting what the government has offered during the LegCo assembly without proper negotiation on many item over the years

A lot of people are always thinking that, because their cause (fight for democracy) is right, all other opinion are wrong. This is really eroding support for the cause if further time has passed by. They have to understand that there are people that support democracy and is willing to obtain it with stability and through time (more negotiation). Also this is really against what real democracy is, people are entitled to different opinion.

A few among the protester said that the Chinese government broke their promise on granting democracy and are being misled to believe that. I did not think China broke the promise. The joint Sino-British declaration state that the ultimate aim for Hong Kong is to have universal suffrage. What is currently being discussed is the time frame, methods and steps, in which people have disagreement on.

In my opinion, even if they could not negotiate anything out of it. The should accept the current Chinese proposal and keep on fighting for more. It is still a step toward democracy and they need to understand it is not something you can have in an instant. There is a Chinese saying. 得寸进尺. (well the literal translation is obtained an inch get a foot. It kind of mean obtain part of something you need or want and keep fighting or requesting for more).

On another note, during the Sino-British negotiation, was LegCo part of the discussion or the British still had power to change the LegCo into a fully elected legislature by the citizen instead of having functional constituency, after the agreement and before the handover. I just remember a new that they had increase the number of elected official in the LegCo. If the British had the power change the Legco, why didn't they do it.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Police and other law enforcement agencies are suppose to uphold the law, and they shouldn't remain neutral to offenders, simply because they claim "civil disobedience" to justify their actions. If the "OC" protesters observe established HK rules and regulations, then by all means allow them to hold their demonstrations, but if they break said laws, then the authorities have fiduciary duties to use appropriate force to throw their raggedy asses in jail.

I think Air's concern is that the police are "allowing the anti-OC crowd a little extra leeway, because they are tired of dealing with it as well???? Time for concern on both sides,,,,, it would be very unfortunate if China feels forced to intervene in Hong Kongs affairs, their restraint to date is encouraging?
 

ancestral

New Member
I think Air's concern is that the police are "allowing the anti-OC crowd a little extra leeway, because they are tired of dealing with it as well???? Time for concern on both sides,,,,, it would be very unfortunate if China feels forced to intervene in Hong Kongs affairs, their restraint to date is encouraging?

The police are obviously outnumbered and helpless. I hope the PLA won't intervene, and I guess they won't since this is exactly what the likes of BBC are waiting for.

On the other hand, if they would stop protecting them and let the anti-OC take care of business, we can restore order in MK overnight.
 

ahho

Junior Member
The police are obviously outnumbered and helpless. I hope the PLA won't intervene, and I guess they won't since this is exactly what the likes of BBC are waiting for.

On the other hand, if they would stop protecting them and let the anti-OC take care of business, we can restore order in MK overnight.

I am pretty sure the PLA won't intervene. The Chinese government probably would like to to see another Tianmen Square as it is very damaging to the economy and stability. I think HK have sufficient force to handle this case and there are still other HK citizen that would like stability and persuade others to get back on the negotiation table.

Again, in my opinion, if they ever get back to the negotiation table, I hope to see other representative would come out instead the usual pan-democratic that is always hogging the negotiation.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
The police are obviously outnumbered and helpless. I hope the PLA won't intervene, and I guess they won't since this is exactly what the likes of BBC are waiting for.

On the other hand, if they would stop protecting them and let the anti-OC take care of business, we can restore order in MK overnight.

you can be assured that Beijing will not use force in this one. it simply has no incentive to resort to such measures.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I think Air's concern is that the police are "allowing the anti-OC crowd a little extra leeway, because they are tired of dealing with it as well???? Time for concern on both sides,,,,, it would be very unfortunate if China feels forced to intervene in Hong Kongs affairs, their restraint to date is encouraging?

i am not sure why there are still people who thinks Beijing might intervene even at this point...what is going on in HK is exactly what they wanted to see, why would they ruin all that? can someone please rationally explain to me why they believe that Beijing will send in the army?
 

Cyclist

Junior Member
Foreign Affairs Minister K Shanmugam also pointed out the anti-China bias in Western media reports, and urged the people of Hong Kong to consider the implications of a change from the Basic Law.

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SINGAPORE: China is "unlikely" to give in to the demands of Occupy Central protesters in Hong Kong as doing so may affect the nation's stability, Singapore's Foreign Affairs Minister K Shanmugam said in an interview with Chinese daily Lianhe Zaobao published on Saturday (Oct 4).

The Chinese government cannot allow Hong Kong to change the system in China, he said.

"What it allows in Hong Kong could have an impact on the rest of China. So China will be very careful," he said. "This perspective is entirely understandable."

From China’s perspective, it needs unity, progress and a "better life" for its 1.3 billion people, Mr Shanmugam noted. To achieve that, a primary requirement is governance.

China’s leadership believes that full multi-party elections at this stage will set the country back from achieving its goals, he said, adding that China will look at the United States to confirm its view that democracy is not right for it at this point.

“So, China will be firm – it is not going to institute any major political change to copy the Western models in the short term. The leadership believes that any such move will be disastrous for China and will hurt the people of China,” Mr Shanmugam said.

At present, China's GDP per capita is about US$6,800. He pointed out that China's leaders would want the country to become "moderately prosperous" before contemplating any move to democratise.

ANTI-CHINA BIAS IN WESTERN MEDIA

There has been lots of anti-China bias in Western media reports, Mr Shanmugam said, noting that reports often state that China is denying democracy and impacting on the freedoms that helped Hong Kong become successful.

But the truth is that Hong Kong did not have a democratic system for 150 years under British rule. Hong Kong did fine. At the time, both the British and the Western media did not think democracy was necessary for Hong Kong, he said.

The Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984 does not mention universal suffrage, and Beijing's proposal is "more than what Hong Kong ever had under the British" – a point which the Western media have missed, Mr Shanmugam said.

IMPLICATIONS OF CHANGING THE BASIC LAW

Occupy Central protesters in Hong Kong need to understand that China has acted in accordance with the Basic Law, he said.

“If Hong Kongers want a change from the Basic Law – they have to recognise that Hong Kong is part of China, and there are some things China will accept, and some things which are red lines for China.”

Protesters need to understand Hong Kong’s “extreme reliance” on China for jobs and their livelihood. “There needs to be a clear understanding of China’s largesse towards Hong Kong even as an anti-China mood is stoked up,” Mr Shanmugam said. “Is the average Hong Konger prepared for the trade-offs?”
 
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