Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Brumby · Oct 4, 2014

jobjed said:
It's understandable that your emotions have gotten inflamed, as you have pointed out in previous posts, but it doesn't validate nor justify your accusations above. Your accusations against SampanViking are a logical fallacy, namely 'argument to accomplishment'.

Air is simply making a point that disruption of daily living to justify the anti OC camp actions is a simplistic view of the dynamics of what is going on in HK. There are issues that have progressively degraded the local lives since 1997 that only if you live through it that you can truly appreciate the depth of the problem. Otherwise it may come across as callous comments and truly ignorant.

SampanViking · Oct 4, 2014

Brumby said:
On paper but the argument from the other camp is that the 35 sub sectors are essentially commerce based and tend to be attentive to Beijing's preference. I believe there is a push to broaden the sectors from which to elect the committee members so that it is more in line with the principle of broad representation as promised in the Basic Law.

I think the movement is pushing for a broader base truly representing HK and change to the 50 % requirement which is already approved by NPC but not ratified by Legco. If Legco. fails to pass the change then by default it reverts to status quo which is CE election by the 1200 member committee and hence no universal suffrage. I think the general view of the pro democracy camp is that no universal suffrage is better than a sham.

Thanks Brumby, your answers have been very helpful.

Several factors stand out very clearly.

1) The Pan Democratic movement is not unrepresented and they should concentrate on advancing their cause using the bodies and framework to which there representatives have been elected.
There is room for demonstrations in this, but these should be orderly and happen over no longer than a day. There objective is to "demonstrate" a level of support. Exceed this and you pass a threshold into something far more sinister.

2) The physical/administrative process of introducing Universal Suffrage is no mean feat, especially given the transient nature of a large part of population at the bottom of the social ladder. The lack of experience of the democratic process will not make this part any easier

3) This is a new process, which will enter new political territory and both sides of the argument have legitimate concerns with regard to the outcome/result. If there is need for anything in 2017, it would be change; not to ensure victory for one faction or another, but to ensure the victory of broad consensus. In other words a result that is supported by an overwhelming majority of all factions on the selection committee, rather than a narrow victory for one side or the other.
If the Pan Democrats object to a blatant Beijing placeman, then the Pan Democrats must be sensitive to nationalist fears of a Foreign funded and supported Demagogue with a disunity agenda.

Hong Kong is an International City and major Financial Centre. The leader needs to be sensitive to needs of the residents, the concerns of Beijing and the interests of International Finance. This would be the compromise/consensus candidate, a true local insider. Finding one should not be too difficult.

SampanViking · Oct 4, 2014

airsuperiority said:
Forgive me, but I have a major allergy that provokes quite a reaction when it comes to listening to people who:

1. aren't involved
2. minimal knowledge of the situation
3. do not understand the perspectives of those primary actors and refuses to
4. very quick concluding judgements
5. then refusal to listen to what others have to say when they tried to share or explain things
6. all the while thinking they are right
7. have a condescending attitude.
8. very quick cynic view of others

My patience runs short for those kinds.

That's a relief, I though you might try and de-legitimise my viewpoints with a series of sweeping generalities.

What makes you believe that any or all of your above list apply in any way to me?

jobjed · Oct 4, 2014

ancestral said:
Lastly, here's an audio account of what happened during the first night of Mongkok clash, from the perspective of a police officer. It's a confidential audio sent to me by my friend in the [police] force. I feel compelled to share. Please do me a favor and not let it spread outside of Sinodefence for the time being. It's in Cantonese by the way.

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I hope I didn't violate any forum rules. Peace!

To translate for non-Cantonese speakers;

I've just arrived safely at the police station, very disappointed in the students. [0:00 - 0:10]

I've been on duty from 6. In the morning, I've been taking calls from various citizens and resolving incidents. [0:11 - 0:19]

At 1, having missed out on lunch, I was called to assist on the street (protest). [0:20 - 0:27]

I estimate there to have been a few hundred anti-OC demonstrators who dismantled many of OC's installations and barricades. [0:28 - 43]

The first incident involved an OC demonstrator who waded into the midst of a few scores of anti-OC demonstrators and began arguing. He (or she) became surrounded and I pulled him out of there. [0:45 - 0:56]

After we were in the clear, he accused me of handling the matter inappropriately. [0:57 - 0:59]

Is he joking? Does he want to be swarmed by the anti-OC demonstrators?![1:00 - 1:04]

Afterwards, he copied down my serial number and took numerous pictures; I'm thinking what the f*ck is this logic? Fine, whatever he wants, I don't give a f*ck. [1:05 - 1:15]

At the scene, all four forks of the intersection were filled with anti-OC demonstrators and all barricades have been dismantled. The situation for the OC students was very precarious. Our Mongkok counterparts desperately blocked the anti-OC demonstrators from swarming and clashing with the students, protecting them. [1:16 - 1:37]

Both sides sustained injuries and threw objects. However, the students had no sense of reality and even tried to provoke further confrontations. The students numbered only a bit more than a hundred, anti-OC had a few hundreds... more than six hundred with all four forks added together. [1:38 - 1:53]

How many police were on the scene? At the time, there were only sixty of us. Can the students stop screwing around? The intersection is huge, can't they listen to our instructions? [1:54 - 2:03]

In the meantime, I took numerous punches, hurt my foot, and scraped myself. [2:04 - 2:13]

In the evening, many anti-OC demonstrators, most of whom were in their forties and above, left the demonstration grounds at around 6, while more students arrived. [2:14 - 2:23]

They counter-surrounded anti-OC demonstrators and the police, punching us and throwing stuff at us. They shouted at us asking why we cordoned off the area and why so many police remained on the scene all the while accusing us of not protecting students. Every time a new contingent of police arrived, they shouted at them to "support the students, protect the students" [2:24 - 2:50]

I'm just thinking "we are bloody protecting you, if we had loosened our grip just a little bit and allowed an opening for the anti-OC demonstrators through, you bunch of students wouldn't be here right now yelling obscenities at us. [2:51 - 3:02]

Just really disappointed, I saw firsthand how aggressive and uncivilised they were. They should be very ashamed. [3:03 - 3:11]

This testimony's importance notwithstanding, please observe OP's request for confidentiality. We are fortunate for an insider to shed light on the subject; it'll be despicable for us to snitch on him.

xiabonan · Oct 4, 2014

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This thread here has a piece of writing by the police, and by a student whose parents are all police and been working for the past 24 hours. The words are very touching. I'll just translate a part from each writing for you guys.

For some people who choose to ignore warnings and continue to clash with the police, what will you do if you were us? You need to consider that you can’t arrest him immediately, because your main purpose is to defend yourselves and the place. Also, because we’re short of people, you can’t go out of the line to catch him, but at the same time you need to stop him from charging without getting him hurt. You have pepper spray but it isn’t working, police batons, tear gas, and gun. I’m not limiting your choices, but in fact we only have these, what will you choose? Or is it that you have other options?
Also, how to balance peaceful and non-peaceful protesters? Do you think that the peaceful protesters need to bear the consequences of non-peaceful protesters’ actions? The most controversial of all is that if there is chaos or some protesters choose to resort to force and violence, do we need to clear the place?

Perhaps we each have an answer to these questions. These questions also make me think deeply, but I’m not the decision maker, I can only hand over my anxiety, uneasiness and sadness to the Lord Jesus. Finally, some words to protesters: we respect your rights to protest and demonstrate, we understand your roles, but do you understand and respect us?

When I’m in my uniform, I’m a professional policeman. Just like doctors, they don’t choose not to treat a patient even if he’s a criminal. This is professionalism. You want us to go on a strike, resign or go for medical leave to go to your place and join you, this is an insult to our profession and an insult to yourselves. Because you cannot tolerate other voices and opinions for your own cause and agenda. I understand your roles, I understand your aims, but I am sorry that I won’t be in your roles. But please don’t question or provoke us during protests, because we can’t argue back no matter what you say. Please understand the role of the police, we’re not your enemies, please do not impose your ideals on me, and treat me like an enemy if I do not accept. Please do not request that I spray at your chest when I had to use pepper spray.

Because if I don’t stop you, it will be a danger to me, to my collegues, and to other citizens. Please do not say that you guys have ideals and we don’t, you’re full of passion and dreams and we’re coldblooded. Please don’t tell me that you have conscience and we don’t. You are humans and we’re dogs. Don’t trust rumours, judge using your own senses.
Last but not least, please do not insult me or my family just because we play different roles in society.

This is written by a student whose parents are all police officers.

Of course, the above is just my own thoughts, and given that my parents are all police and that I’m not present on site, I can’t say I’m not biased and completely neutral. You can disagree with my rebuttal but the following is my real feelings that I hope people will take a serious look at it.

Ever since the movement started, I’ve never imagined that there will be such a tense standoff between the police and citizens. When I turn on the TV I see protesters occupying and hear their insults, I’m extremely worried about my papa who has worked for more than 24 hours. I’m afraid I’ll hear news that he’s injured. My tears couldn’t stop falling when I see the police personnel were all in formation but are all exhausted, seeing that citizens condemning and insulting non-stop, seeing all the accusations and blame on the police online. Workers at MacDonald’s say that they’ll add poison to the police’s 1000 orders, some foot product company refuse to welcome police, and a professor refuse to write reference letters for students who want to be a police. It seems that everyone is leaving the police. I don’t want to discuss the big matters on democracy and freedom, I just want to say what I feel as a kid. I’m afraid that my parents are hurt, afraid the confidence of the police will collapse, afraid that I can’t hold on to my beliefs. What really scares me is peer pressure. The Yellow Ribbon is everywhere on Facebook, every place I see my friends reposting and liking posts criticising the police. All of them are saying the police are “police dogs”, “police of the mainland”, or “communist army”. When I refuse to support OC, I was called “pig of Hong Kong”, “50 cents”. Everyone who supports OC became heroes and those with differing opinions are mice on the streets. Hong Kong became a city that only sees black or white, and can’t tolerate any more different opinions. People who hold different opinions must be gotten rid of. I even saw someone took a screenshot of a lady’s Facebook status and put it on “public trial” on the Facebook page dedicated to OC, simply because she doesn’t support OC. Why did things turn out this way? Why force everyone to stand by your side? Since when did HKers become democratic in skin but authoritarian in bones? I’m afraid that I’ll be the subject of condemnation because my parents are police officers, I’m afraid to hear my friends accusing the police. I’m afraid that I can’t face them in school tomorrow. I’m taking my exams this year and I’m afraid I may be behind in progress and unable to take the exams therefore cannot enter university. But I’m afraid to say it out loud because I’ll be called “selfish” and “pig of HK”.

PanAsian · Oct 4, 2014

Brumby said:
Media statement issued by Amnesty International regarding some eye witness accounts.
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It is not the job of police to protect illegal protesters.

That said, HK police actually are doing so when warranted to keep the peace.

xiabonan · Oct 4, 2014

I'm also seeing comment like this:

"These people are real cowards and selfish. Occupy whatever you want but just don't disrupt the normal lives of citizens. If you really want to protest that badly, go to Tiananmen square and protest! Let the Beijing government see your wishes! You request CY Leung to resign, but you know that he's just a puppet and doesn't have much say right? If you really want true direct elections, go to the NPC and tell them, or ask Xi Jinping the reall boss to resign! Dare you to do it? Least come to least, go occupy the PLA building or the LOCPG HK building! Why come to Mong Kok and bother us?"

Franklin · Oct 4, 2014

I wonder if the HK CE CY Leung isn't secretly hoping that these protests would last some what longer.

As I understand he was widely unpopular with the majority of the Hongkongese even amongst those outside of the OC movement. Now because of the behaviour of the OC crowd people are starting to rally around him and the HK goverment just to oppose the OC guys. There is now even a pro-government blue ribbon movement in Hong Kong. Lets hope HK doesn't turn into another Thailand.

I think it would be wise for the OC to make a tactical redraw at this point and to make a comeback later. (Which at this point is not happening) Because emotions are so high right now in HK that people may just take the opposite position and view of the OC movement just for the sake of it. And the OC movement may actually succeed in what Beijing and CY Leung couldn't do. Make the majority of the Hongkongese support the new elections arrangements.

superdog · Oct 4, 2014

ancestral said:
Hi! I've been a lurker on this forum and following this discussion for a while now. I live in Hong Kong, 30, currently a business owner. I'm definitely not a thug or a triad member, and I am also completely against this OC movement.

I think this self-pity (and this movement) has to stop. I accept that you have a cause to fight for, but why demonize all those who are opposed to your point of view? You certainly do not represent 7 million HK people. You'll know if you try to occupy my region. We're all armed and ready to flush you out. When the government cannot secure our livelihood, we'll take matters into our own hands. Democracy sounds good, until you realize the so-called "universal suffrage" won't satisfy the pan-dem and Jimmy Lai. Here's what will happen even if your version of universal suffrage happens:

Pan-dem candidate got elected
Apple Daily and their pan-dem friends will still blame the opposition and central gov't for not helping HK, screwing up things.

Pan-dem candidate lost election
They will of course blame this on the CPC and say the election is rigged.

In conclusion, Jimmy Lai and his pan-dem friends won't rest until they dictate everything. They don't want democracy. They want chaos.

Lastly, here's an audio account of what happened during the first night of Mongkok clash, from the perspective of a police officer. It's a confidential audio sent to me by my friend in the [police] force. I feel compelled to share. Please do me a favor and not let it spread outside of Sinodefence for the time being. It's in Cantonese by the way.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

I hope I didn't violate any forum rules. Peace!

Welcome to the forum and thanks a lot for sharing first-hand experience.

I saw someone has already translated the recording, but I have already done mine before seeing the other post so let me post my version anyway, and people can cross-reference for translation accuracy.

I'm safely back to the police station now.

I'm so very very disappointed to the students.

I started 6 o'clock today and got a lot of calls from citizens in the morning.

Starting 1 o'clock and didn't have lunch yet, I went to Argyle St to help out. I think there were a few hundred anti-OC protesters who dismantled some supply station of the OC camp.

The first incident was that there was one person walked towards a group of a few dozen anti-OC people to argue, and he was surrounded. I have to rush forward and pull him away.

Then this person want to complain me for being "not fair".

Are you kidding me, if I don't pull you away what's gonna happen to you?

And he copied down my number and spilled all foul language on me and I was like WTF? What kind of world is this? Okay whatever you want.

Afterwards, actually, at the intersection of Nathan Rd and Argyle St (Superdog: these are the 2 main roads in the center of Mong Kok), all four sides were surrounded with anti-OC protesters. They already removed a lot of supply stations (for the OC camp), they were agitated and the situation was very dangerous. Me and my Mong Kok colleagues held tight to defend and not let them impact the students, to protect the students.

During this time both sides engaged in physical attacks, both sides threw things, both sides had injuries. But the students were the ones who had no situational awareness and kept instigating conflict. They only had a hundred or so people, and their opposing group had hundreds of people, almost six hundred when four sides combined. How many police were there? 60. Don't be so silly, look how big those streets are, please listen to us.

During this conflict I got punched so many times, my foot was injured, I was hurt, I got some abrasion.

As it goes on into the night, actually a lot of the anti-OC protesters were 40 or older, and they left at around 6pm. And then some other students arrived, then they turned the tide and surrounded the few anti-OC people that were left, and they surrounded the police. They boo and shout foul language at the police, questioning why the police use caution tape to block areas, why so many police need to stay there. Then they f-word the police for not protecting the students. Whenever police arrived they shout "support the student! protect the student!" and boo the police. I was thinking, we ARE protecting you. If we don't, we could just let people rush in and dismantle your main stage a long time ago. Now you are so arrogant? WTF!

I was so disappointed. I saw it with my own eyes how uncivilized and irrational they were. Please stop, seriously.

xiabonan · Oct 4, 2014

Franklin said:
I wonder of the HK CE CY Leung isn't secretly hoping that these protests would last some what longer. As I understand he was widely unpopular with the majority of the Hongkongese even amongst those outside of the OC movement. Now because of the behaviour of the OC crowd people are starting to rally around him and the HK goverment just to oppose the OC guys. There is now even a pro-government blue ribbon movement in Hong Kong. Lets hope HK doesn't turn into another Thailand.

I think it would be wise for the OC to make a tactical redraw at this point and to make a comeback later. (Which at this point is not happening) Because emotions are so high right now in HK that people may just take the opposite position and view of the OC movement just for the sake of it. And the OC movement may actually succeed in what Beijing and CY Leung couldn't do. Make the majority of the Hongkongese support the new elections arrangements.

That will be extremely ironic....but not totally impossible.

Maybe after this the ordinary citizens of Hong Kong would be genuinely scared of mass protests and drastic changes...

Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Brumby

Major

SampanViking

The Capitalist

SampanViking

The Capitalist

jobjed

Captain

xiabonan

Junior Member

PanAsian

Major

xiabonan

Junior Member

Franklin

Captain

superdog

Junior Member

xiabonan

Junior Member