Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Brumby said:

Categorically yes.



It boils down to interpretation on the meaning of universal suffrage. Beijing's view is it is with Chinese characteristics but the OC's view is universal meaning. Please don't go into a debate over what is universal because it is a pointless exercise.

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Without getting into semantics, if both sides can legally and legitimately claim Basic Law is on their side, then it's rally tough for the protesters claim Beijing isn't following the rule of law. It then gets down to "my way or the highway after all."

Blackstone said:

Without getting into semantics, if both sides can legally and legitimately claim Basic Law is on their side, then it's rally tough for the protesters claim Beijing isn't following the rule of law. It then gets down to "my way or the highway after all."

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i wonder if it is possible for this case to be brought to court and let the judges decide. of course that would require the law to be passed first, and even if HK court were to strike it down NPC still has the final say...but at least the protesters can prove a point.

HK People can still can conduct commerce with or without democracy.

HK People can't with hordes of young unemployed youth disrupting their way of living.

When HKer start running into realities of opposing China or supporting a few idealistic blowhards, I'm guessing they will choose the path of lease resistance.

texx1 said:

What you or I or anyone here personally believes has no real meaningful bearings on the outcome of this protest. It's up to Beijing to decide.

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Totally agree. Beijing is the only one that can ultimately grants it. I have consistently been saying these because it is reality. It is for that reason I have also said consistently that any solution has to be within the framework of the Basic Law and more importantly within Beijing's comfort zone. A comfort zone approach is working with Beijing with the aim of enlarging the zone. What we have currently is unfortunately a more antagonistic approach which doesn't enhance comfort level. I don't know enough of HK politics to comment further and so I will leave it as is.

texx1 said:

Since you have been leaning towards the notion that Beijing should grant OC protesters' demand, letting HKers choose for themselves, I am merely curious as to what you consider to be actual tangible benefits for Beijing to grant this request when there are some major negatives such as potential threat to China's territorial integrity.

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There are actually a number of tangible benefits.
(i)Basic Law promises universal suffrage. There is no dispute over that. Delivering it to HK is fulfilment of a commitment and that Beijing honours it in the eyes of international community. World image cultivation is an important rehab coming off 1989.
(ii)What is being played out in HK is also for consumption by Taiwan that Beijing can be reasonable of democracy within certain framework.
(iii)A CE truly elected has legitimacy in the eyes of the HK population and also accountability. Accountability enhances rule of law especially over corruptive practices - a major issue in China. Such a political model is absent in China even though China has universal suffrage with Chinese characteristics. Such a test bed could prove useful for CCP's own political survivor rather than a threat.

Please explain what is this notion of threat to China's territorial integrity?

pla101prc said:

i wonder if it is possible for this case to be brought to court and let the judges decide. of course that would require the law to be passed first, and even if HK court were to strike it down NPC still has the final say...but at least the protesters can prove a point.

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Good idea, maybe that can be the concession for HK government to give protesters. However, would Xi Jinping go for it?

Blackstone said:

Without getting into semantics, if both sides can legally and legitimately claim Basic Law is on their side, then it's rally tough for the protesters claim Beijing isn't following the rule of law. It then gets down to "my way or the highway after all."

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I really don't know what is being claimed out there because there is no central body that seems to be directing this which in my view is why it will ultimately fail for messaging and lack of leadership.

pla101prc said:

i wonder if it is possible for this case to be brought to court and let the judges decide. of course that would require the law to be passed first, and even if HK court were to strike it down NPC still has the final say...but at least the protesters can prove a point.

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OC has no leg legally at this point to contest in court. Beijing is operating within the law especially if it is read in conjunction with the text that the goal is for universal suffrage when the conditions allow. This wording is so open ended that this thing can drag on indefinitely as a working model.

Right now the battle is for public opinion but generally in this type of issues 95 % of the population doesn't understand, know or care enough other then the next meal.

Brumby said:

OC has no leg legally at this point to contest in court. Beijing is operating within the law especially if it is read in conjunction with the text that the goal is for universal suffrage when the conditions allow. This wording is so open ended that this thing can drag on indefinitely as a working model.

Right now the battle is for public opinion but generally in this type of issues 95 % of the population doesn't understand, know or care enough other then the next meal.

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well like you said, the definition of universal suffrage will be the point of contention, it cant be as bad as the ACA lol.

Blackstone said:

Good idea, maybe that can be the concession for HK government to give protesters. However, would Xi Jinping go for it?

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heeeelll no, but i think this is a really good way to challenge Beijing without being accused of negating the rule of law. but with 2017 closing in quickly i wonder if HK's superior court can process this case in time.

pla101prc said:

heeeelll no, but i think this is a really good way to challenge Beijing without being accused of negating the rule of law. but with 2017 closing in quickly i wonder if HK's superior court can process this case in time.

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Just how much influence does Beijing has over the HK courts, some, little, or none?