Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Bltizo said:

No idea as to if there's a link, I'm just talking about the principle of it.

I don't think "it is simply politics" is enough of an explanation for something like overthrowing the CCP in this context.

If we want to talk about universal principles, one could say that seeking political stability and pragmatism is preferable to overthrowing a ruling party/group. Of course, the fact that China isn't a democracy means that "overthrowing" the CCP is a far more radical statement than it would be in the US for a republican to say they want to "overthrow" obama. So context is absolutely important.

The only way we could reconcile the statement is if it is a universal principle for all countries ever to be multiparty democracies (therefore by extension making China as a country illegitimate or something along those lines). Whether one believes that particular principle will determine whether they think this statement is radical.

Addendum: of course, HK is different to China in that it allows greater freedom of speech on political matters, which automatically means there is greater breadth for things like "overthrowing the CCP" to be considered normal rather than radical. But at the same time, China has sovereignty over HK, so where does the balance lie?

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I think we are in agreement, just expressing it differently. It is context and frame of reference. Making judgment about someone in a vacuum is probably unreasonable.

Brumby said:

I think we are in agreement, just expressing it differently. It is context and frame of reference. Making judgment about someone in a vacuum is probably unreasonable.

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Sure, yeah.

I think the point of difference we have is what frame of reference is used to measure, and ultimately that depends on one's life views.

Bltizo said:

Addendum: of course, HK is different to China in that it allows greater freedom of speech on political matters, which automatically means there is greater breadth for things like "overthrowing the CCP" to be considered normal rather than radical. But at the same time, China has sovereignty over HK, so where does the balance lie?

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In the context of HK/China, overthrowing CCP is a no go zone simply because that is not in my view what the OC/student movement is directed at.

Brumby said:

In the context of HK/China, overthrowing CCP is a no go zone simply because that is not in my view what the OC/student movement is directed at.

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At this point I don't even know what OC really wants anymore. Social media, news media, common sense, moderate sources, all say different things.

I'm just hoping there won't be too much violence among groups.

Bltizo said:

At this point I don't even know what OC really wants anymore. Social media, news media, common sense, moderate sources, all say different things.

I'm just hoping there won't be too much violence among groups.

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That is precisely why I think the movement will fail if they continue in current form. There are actually a bunch of different groups which each having their own agenda, objectives and plans. They need to come together as one unit with one common goal and set of objectives. I am not sure whether by design or the OC movement has faded but my impression is that the offer of negotiation was only made to the students and not to the other groups.

airsuperiority said:

Apparently some brandished knives and a few students had received scratched. I understand all of what you've said, but you shouldn't believe the police are stretched thin. There are multiple videos reaffirming what the police is doing, but again I don't feel a point in posting it.

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Media statement issued by Amnesty International regarding some eye witness accounts.

Brumby said:

Media statement issued by Amnesty International regarding some eye witness accounts.

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Seems like that confirmed what I've been saying along.

Haven't read the whole post myself, but I really don't understand why the protesters don't want to have dialogue of any sort. Like many said, any delay in negotiation will cause the protest to fail. People will later realize that, given the stance of Beijing, the best option to get anything out of the current situation is to negotiate, instead of demanding full democracy and reject all other proposal. In my opinion China may make minor concession if they negotiate.

I can understand that, since HK is a modern city and we are in a modern age, demanding universal suffrage currently is the right time. What I don't understand is, why they cannot accept the improvement in democratic process that the Communist Party have provided. I remember a few years back, LegCo have rejected improvement once and now they will probably reject it again this time around. If the protester think China will interrupt in the election under the current proposal, such us intervening in the nomination committee, let it happen, you will have a better excuse to reject any further proposal for reform other than universal suffrage. Again in my opinion, if the nominee have a huge backing from the citizen, the Chinese government is not that dumb to intervene and have the nomination committee to reject the potential candidate's nomination. This would be a huge blow to Chinese government's face when it get spun in the media.

From the media, they have showed individuals from HK, NY and Toronto supporting the protest. A minority of the individuals were stating that they would like to maintain the current level of freedom and would not like any change or intervention made by the Chinese Government. This kind of saddens me that some of them are misinformed. HK did not have democracy under the crown rule. All current proposal for reform are more democratic than before.

Also, in regarding to Chinese poor behavior abroad. That is actually changing with the new generation. Remember, similar behavior was exhibited by Hong Kong and Taiwan travelers in the past and it had changed. I haven't been to all of China, but education, TV and public announcement in the GuangDong Province are encourage citizens to maintain cleanliness and improvement have been made. Hong Kong back from the 70~90 had the same problem. All it took was campaign and steep fines to change peoples behavior. Steep fines and enforcement on drunk driving and traffic infraction have scared off many offenders.

ahho said:

Haven't read the whole post myself, but I.........

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Then you should find out before you comment. Attackers are assaulting the students and touching female high school students and the delegates are telling the HKSAR gov't to tell those people to stop. The allegation is that the HKSAR gov't knew about what's happening

how are you, airsuperiority? is this

true?