Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

I just want to say that it is impossible for us to judge whether it is moral or not for societies to socialize their children into having particular views. We could say it is insane for some teenagers to have been socialized in a way to want to overthrow the CCP, while others would say the same for China for socializing its children to not believe that democracy is the only just political system, etc.


The education and socialization of a child is probably the single smallest indivisible unit of action that political power can be exerted on.

airsuperiority said:

The guy at the back that is crying eventually said his father was taken to the hospital due to the attacks. These few kids are holding onto the tent from being ripped apart. I saw the pictures earlier but also decided not to post it because it's pretty much pointless.

Also, all the blame is still undermining their cause as them knowing what they are doing, but no one has made a statement here about the vicious attacks taking place other than legitimizing them.

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airsuperiority, I think I'm a little older than you. You seems like a great guy even if we disagree on some issues. All I can say is that no matter what happens, don't become disillusioned. You still have many years ahead of you, and what is a life for but to fight the battles we believe in. So what if the world is dark and some people are corrupt, just give us more to fight for, and there are still plenty of good people out there.

airsuperiority said:

The guy at the back that is crying eventually said his father was taken to the hospital due to the attacks. These few kids are holding onto the tent from being ripped apart. I saw the pictures earlier but also decided not to post it because it's pretty much pointless.

Also, all the blame is still undermining their cause as them knowing what they are doing, but no one has made a statement here about the vicious attacks taking place other than legitimizing them.

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Uh, I don't think anyone's legitimized them, and I have posted quite clearly that violence from any group should not be tolerated.

I also liked the post with the article saying some of the triad members part of the violence were arrested.


But I will say that violent clashes -- especially between different groups with opposing motives, and with police stretched thin and immobile -- are inevitably going to happen in these situations. I am not going to victim blame anyone, but at the same time, if anyone is going to stick your neck out there for a cause they believe in, they must prepare to get hurt. That is why my sympathy for acts of violence or suffering in any public movement is limited -- because once you're out there, you'll have to face the consequences.

I've partaken in only a few public gatherings in my life, and in each of them I had already made peace that I had no ability to complain if my group clashed with another opposing group, and I recognized it would be within the rights of the powers that be to use any means to re assert order as they see fit. The few public gatherings were all relatively peaceful, and NZ is one of the freest countries in the world when it comes to freedom of speech, so I could appreciate how those possibilities would never come to pass.
But the principle remained the same -- that if you're out doing something, you'd better be damned sure you're ready to die for it.

shen said:

That's the problem. We don't who they are. They stay in the shadow, while using children to fight their battles. Whoever they are, they've indoctrinated Joshua with some pretty radical views. He is the record saying stuff like he is not just fighting for demcracy in HK, but to overthrow the Chinese government, and he is not interested in long term solutions, anyone not interested in immediate victory shouldn't be in this fight at all. Check out some videos of him online. scary stuff.

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I don't have any problem with the idea of people being radicalised under a set of conditions. We see the results in ISIL and what they are capable of doing. The problem I have is with the association of an idea to a subject or person as if the person is guilty of it.

There are several problems :
(i) That Joshua is radicalised. The basis is some video of what he supposedly said. There is no link to any videos. We don't know whether the videos are doctored. Context is everything.
(ii)In politics, the moral or legal standing of specific issues can be debatable. To say it is radical takes it up another notch. Such a charge requires a much higher standard of evidence then merely hear say.
(iii)The charge that a 17 year olds has no reasoning ability and surely must be manipulated by some unseen hands which we do not know but is there.

The only thing I can conclude is our imagination is radically stretched.

Brumby said:

I don't have any problem with the idea of people being radicalised under a set of conditions. We see the results in ISIL and what they are capable of doing. The problem I have is with the association of an idea to a subject or person as if the person is guilty of it.

There are several problems :
(i) That Joshua is radicalised. The basis is some video of what he supposedly said. There is no link to any videos. We don't know whether the videos are doctored. Context is everything.
(ii)In politics, the moral or legal standing of specific issues can be debatable. To say it is radical takes it up another notch. Such a charge requires a much higher standard of evidence then merely hear say.
(iii)The charge that a 17 year olds has no reasoning ability and surely must be manipulated by some unseen hands which we do not know but is there.

The only thing I can conclude is our imagination is radically stretched.

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Related to point ii, the context is important. To be radical must mean there is a "normal". In this case, is it normal for someone of his age in HK to be calling for the overthrow of CCP? (all of course, dependent on whether he said what he said or not)

On point iii, the results of indoctrination (aka socialization) doesn't mean it detracts from one's reasoning ability or that they are merely an empty vessel for other's to carry out their bidding. I think shen was more suggesting "unseen hands" as "nudging" people towards particular views.

For the record, I don't necessarily believe the guy has been manipulated by any single "unseen" entity. His views could easily be constructed through exposure to media and interaction with friends, teachers, families.

shen said:

airsuperiority, I think I'm a little older than you. You seems like a great guy even if we disagree on some issues. All I can say is that no matter what happens, don't become disillusioned. You still have many years ahead of you, and what is a life for but to fight the battles we believe in. So what if the world is dark and some people are corrupt, just give us more to fight for, and there are still plenty of good people out there.

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Thank you so much. Your words mean a lot to us right now. This really means a lot. You have no idea what my facebook and the emotions of my friends are like right now. Everyone's feeling like sh!t. Everything I have shown you is literally what I have seen on my Facebook right now. It's almost no longer possible for us to deny that HK is now corrupted and with what is happening there. The reason I was so supportive of them is because I see them like my younger brothers and sisters, and they carried hope, beliefs, in fighting for their future, what they think is right and their dignities, although without knowing the unsustainable lifestyles ahead of them. And tonight, they are being attacked and touched and insulted and humiliated. It's true, no one thinks of them as students anymore. They are now exposed to the cruelties of this world, with their innocence being ripped out of their hearts. Whereas the days before they were the most peaceful protestors in the world, now they are being victimized and experiencing the anarchist inflicted upon them by government-warranted thugs and the corrupted police.
I would have flown back to support them few days ago, but if I am to fly back now, I wanted to protect them. Like a taxi driver said, "Let us take the beating. You have a future ahead." I can't bear my eyes to watch them watch their hopes being skinned by the cruelties of this society. They now experienced the darkness of power, politics, greed, ignorance. I hope they haven't lost their hopes yet. Maybe they can teach me a thing or 2 back, about courage, because my hopes now only extend to protect them and had given up all hopes on this city. I worried they may be the last generation who still believes in change in HK. This city is near dead otherwise. The life there is unsustainable, and yet they are the ones who will have to suffer it all. They are trying to make a stand, but the adults are crushing them. For everything we teach our children about hope, love, good karma, power in their hands and to make a living, we are shoving it in their face and letting them see it's all a big lie, a lie used to keep the population foolish, not because anyone genuinely believes in good anymore. People who said they have to work and feed a family are now sneering and jeering and supporting the attacks on these kids. If your kids are precious, are these kids nothing just because they belong to someone else?


But, your words are kind and it's been received. Thank you so much.

Bltizo said:

Uh, I don't think anyone's legitimized them, and I have posted quite clearly that violence from any group should not be tolerated.

I also liked the post with the article saying some of the triad members part of the violence were arrested.


But I will say that violent clashes -- especially between different groups with opposing motives, and with police stretched thin and immobile -- are inevitably going to happen in these situations. I am not going to victim blame anyone, but at the same time, if anyone is going to stick your neck out there for a cause they believe in, they must prepare to get hurt. That is why my sympathy for acts of violence or suffering in any public movement is limited -- because once you're out there, you'll have to face the consequences.

I've partaken in only a few public gatherings in my life, and in each of them I had already made peace that I had no ability to complain if my group clashed with another opposing group, and I recognized it would be within the rights of the powers that be to use any means to re assert order as they see fit. The few public gatherings were all relatively peaceful, and NZ is one of the freest countries in the world when it comes to freedom of speech, so I could appreciate how those possibilities would never come to pass.
But the principle remained the same -- that if you're out doing something, you'd better be damned sure you're ready to die for it.

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Apparently some brandished knives and a few students had received scratched. I understand all of what you've said, but you shouldn't believe the police are stretched thin. There are multiple videos reaffirming what the police is doing, but again I don't feel a point in posting it.

Bltizo said:

Related to point ii, the context is important. To be radical must mean there is a "normal". In this case, is it normal for someone of his age in HK to be calling for the overthrow of CCP? (all of course, dependent on whether he said what he said or not)

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Is there a link that shows that he talks about overthrowing CCP? In a democratic society the aim of the opposition is always to overthrow the ruling party - it is simply politics. In the case of HK/Beijing politics that may be seen as radical which I can understand but not as a universal principle.

airsuperiority said:

Apparently some brandished knives and a few students had received scratched. I understand all of what you've said, but you shouldn't believe the police are stretched thin. There are multiple videos reaffirming what the police is doing, but again I don't feel a point in posting it.

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Well, my own position on the use of violence by activists (OC or anti OC) is the same.

I have no idea what the situation there is like, but I imagine the movements and person to person actions of protesters on either side would make police intervention to prevent scuffles difficult at best.

If the police saw people brandishing knives and didn't bother to stop them, that's different to not being able to intervene in time.

Brumby said:

Is there a link that shows that he talks about overthrowing CCP? In a democratic society the aim of the opposition is always to overthrow the ruling party - it is simply politics. In the case of HK/Beijing politics that may be seen as radical which I can understand but not as a universal principle.

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No idea as to if there's a link, I'm just talking about the principle of it.

I don't think "it is simply politics" is enough of an explanation for something like overthrowing the CCP in this context.

If we want to talk about universal principles, one could say that seeking political stability and pragmatism is preferable to overthrowing a ruling party/group. Of course, the fact that China isn't a democracy means that "overthrowing" the CCP is a far more radical statement than it would be in the US for a republican to say they want to "overthrow" obama. So context is absolutely important.

The only way we could reconcile the statement is if it is a universal principle for all countries ever to be multiparty democracies (therefore by extension making China as a country illegitimate or something along those lines). Whether one believes that particular principle will determine whether they think this statement is radical.

Addendum: of course, HK is different to China in that it allows greater freedom of speech on political matters, which automatically means there is greater breadth for things like "overthrowing the CCP" to be considered normal rather than radical. But at the same time, China has sovereignty over HK, so where does the balance lie?