Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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Jeff Head

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>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<

This thread is about the demonstrations in Hong Kong regarding the elections.

STOP the name calling, the references to bigotry, racism, Hitler comparisons, etc., etc. ad nausium..

The thread is closed for 24 hours to cool off.

BE WARNED...if it happens again, the thread will be closed permanently and depending on who is guilty, suspensions may well be handed out.

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>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<
 

Brumby

Major
Are you serious?

If you really want to start nit picking about procedural issues, then technically, if HK protestors were transferred to mainland jails pending hearing of their case in HK courts because of a lack of space in HK cells, the onus would be on you, the defence, to prove a breech of the law or the perps' rights to prevent the prisoner transfer, not for the authorities to justify that they can transfer prisoners so.

So how about you please expend on what you think, procedurally, would make such a temporary prisoner transfer and holding arrangement illegal or unconstitutional?

I am actually serious because what you are suggesting sets up a structural dislocation of the political landscape and in politics that is a nuclear option. I will lay out the premise of my assertion.

Hong Kong Basic Law sets out certain protection, including :
The freedom of the person of Hong Kong residents shall be inviolable. No Hong Kong resident shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful arrest, detention or imprisonment. The procedures for amendments to the Basic Law are laid out in Article 159. Any amendments require the approval of the Chief Executive of HK, two thirds of the Legislative Council of HK members and two thirds of the deputies representing Hong Kong in the NPC.

Let’s set out the scenario that for whatever reason, the HK government decides to round up the lot. They have to be charged within 72 hours or be released. There are not enough jails for temporary detention.
I am not a lawyer but my interpretation is that any lawful detention has to be physically within the territory as governed by the HKSAR administration. You can’t simply move them across to the Mainland. That is unlawful because it is a cross border move and under the one country two systems, it is a different legal jurisdiction. That is why there is such a thing as extradition to facilitate legal transfers between territories. China cannot conduct extradition on them because there is no legal basis to do so unless laws are broken in China while physically in China. You can try amending the Basic Law to cover this (long shot) but under current political scenario, there are insufficient 2/3 majority in LegCo. to pass as this is a very controversial move. I am assuming there are no emergency provisions to do this under Executive power. I seriously doubt you can siphon people off cross border even under emergency powers. This leaves a remaining option of declaring HK’s security under threat because there is a break down in law and order and HK has become unmanageable. It becomes a defence issue which Beijing can then call in the PLA and whatever else they decide. For political cover, such a drastic move requires matching developments like uncontained rioting or total breakdown of law and order.

Your suggestion is expedient but there is a procedural process and legal framework in HK that still rest on the notion of rule of law, transparency and accountability.
 

Brumby

Major
That is the very definition of stereotype, since you seek to draw a such board strokes on a group of people! I hope even you aren't that stupid.

It is an accurate characterization of the facts on the ground regarding two specific social issues. You are attempting to emphasize something else which is secondary to suit your accusation. You used the word mainlander and accuse me of stereotyping them. Please go back to my post from which you made the claim. I did not even mention that word. I did mentioned mothers and property speculators. I have offered my explanation previously and rather than offering any defeaters you become disparaging. It doesn’t enhance your reasoning, just reflects poorly on conduct.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I am actually serious because what you are suggesting sets up a structural dislocation of the political landscape and in politics that is a nuclear option. I will lay out the premise of my assertion.

Hong Kong Basic Law sets out certain protection, including :
The freedom of the person of Hong Kong residents shall be inviolable. No Hong Kong resident shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful arrest, detention or imprisonment. The procedures for amendments to the Basic Law are laid out in Article 159. Any amendments require the approval of the Chief Executive of HK, two thirds of the Legislative Council of HK members and two thirds of the deputies representing Hong Kong in the NPC.

Let’s set out the scenario that for whatever reason, the HK government decides to round up the lot. They have to be charged within 72 hours or be released. There are not enough jails for temporary detention.
I am not a lawyer but my interpretation is that any lawful detention has to be physically within the territory as governed by the HKSAR administration. You can’t simply move them across to the Mainland. That is unlawful because it is a cross border move and under the one country two systems, it is a different legal jurisdiction. That is why there is such a thing as extradition to facilitate legal transfers between territories. China cannot conduct extradition on them because there is no legal basis to do so unless laws are broken in China while physically in China. You can try amending the Basic Law to cover this (long shot) but under current political scenario, there are insufficient 2/3 majority in LegCo. to pass as this is a very controversial move. I am assuming there are no emergency provisions to do this under Executive power. I seriously doubt you can siphon people off cross border even under emergency powers. This leaves a remaining option of declaring HK’s security under threat because there is a break down in law and order and HK has become unmanageable. It becomes a defence issue which Beijing can then call in the PLA and whatever else they decide. For political cover, such a drastic move requires matching developments like uncontained rioting or total breakdown of law and order.

Your suggestion is expedient but there is a procedural process and legal framework in HK that still rest on the notion of rule of law, transparency and accountability.

you need to take a look at article 18, if it gets to the point where HKSAR needs to round up that many people, the NPC would have declared a state of emergency, at which point none of those legal constraints would apply.
 

Brumby

Major
you need to take a look at article 18, if it gets to the point where HKSAR needs to round up that many people, the NPC would have declared a state of emergency, at which point none of those legal constraints would apply.

Which is covered in my final point. Until you get there, just shipping people off across the border may be expedient but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is an escalation path and a procedural process that takes place and hence my original question. Once we are in that territory, there are a lot more structural issues than just worrying where to house temporary detainees. The s*** has effectively hit the fan.
 

texx1

Junior Member
Which is covered in my final point. Until you get there, just shipping people off across the border may be expedient but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is an escalation path and a procedural process that takes place and hence my original question. Once we are in that territory, there are a lot more structural issues than just worrying where to house temporary detainees. The s*** has effectively hit the fan.

I don't think plawolf was suggesting shipping rioters to mainland prison when things are under control. What he suggested could only have happened under a declared state of emergency. Tens of thousands rioters had to be arrested for HK prisons to run out of space. A state of emergency and marital law would have been declared long before coming to that point.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
From what I can tell yesterday was a critical juncture for the OC movement as they confront CY Leung with a deadline to submit his resignation. There was a surge of indignation when Leung refused to conform to the protesters' request and an attack on HK's government building seemed imminent (which was a possibility I had brought up earlier and was subsequently accused of inciting violence for it). Fortunately cooler minds prevailed that night and the hardliners were eventually persuaded to abstain from their original plan.

at the same time the HKSAR and CCP are positioning the pieces from their side with a declaration of non-compliance. the People's Daily editorial of that day pretty much precluded any possibility of compromise, which does not suprise me one bit and apparently was also within the calculation of the protesters. So we are now looking at a painful stalemate with the HKSAR intent on waiting the protesters out. given the OC movement's pledge of non-violence, the waiting game can very much eviscerate the movement by reducing its momentum and bring into question its usefulness.

what is interesting is that some reports on the ground had mentioned that the protesters never expected the CCP to compromise in the first place. one report from NYTimes quoted a prominent participant of the movement justifying their action "as long as we are fighting there is hope"...really? you are confronting one of the most powerful political organizations in the history of mankind, which at the same time is an expert in creating and dealing with mass movement, and you are banking on an elusive "hope"? this really makes me question the wisdom of initiating OC in the first place. I challenge any pronounced supporter of this movement now to tell me just exactly what your plan is????
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Which is covered in my final point. Until you get there, just shipping people off across the border may be expedient but that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is an escalation path and a procedural process that takes place and hence my original question. Once we are in that territory, there are a lot more structural issues than just worrying where to house temporary detainees. The s*** has effectively hit the fan.

well i seriously doubt things will get to that point, either the invocation of article 18 or shipping people off to mainland...it benefits no one, i think all parties involved are adults and should be able to figure that much out.
 
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