Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brumby

Brumby

Major
texx1 said:
Your faith in protesters remaining peaceful is very impressive. For their sake I hope so too. But cynics like me would not have as much faith as you do. But then again, this is a developing story so we will find out soon enough.
Click to expand...

I think we all want to see this end peacefully and without incident and that there is an acceptable solution for everyone. So far the general behaviour of the OC movement is encouraging based on what had been reported and so that is a good sign. The problem in my mind is that the longer this drags on, the greater is the scope for miscalculation from both ends. The discomforting part I see is that the OC movement does not seem to have an end game beyond pressing on with their demands. There needs to be a circuit breaker and path to de-escalate which I do not see coming from the OC movement or the authorities. If there is a back room dialogue going on, I haven't seen the rumors.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
texx1 said:
Your faith in protesters remaining peaceful is very impressive. For their sake I hope so too. But cynics like me would not have as much faith as you do. But then again, this is a developing story so we will find out soon enough.
Click to expand...

I know you guys have reasons to be pessimistic, but let's hope for the best shall we? It going down the wrong path is nothing we all want to see. HK is part of China, and we're all writing history. Let's hope something good is written in the books tonight.
 
Geographer

Geographer

Junior Member
A radical idea popped into my head. Why can't Hong Kong residents organize their own general election for Chief Executive? They already laid the ground work with the non-governmental referendum a few months ago on democracy. The poll could be done online and in person. Then all that needs to happen for democracy to take hold is for government officials to obey the elected CE and ignore the Beijing-appointed CE. It'd be a bloodless, democratic revolution.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
Geographer said:
A radical idea popped into my head. Why can't Hong Kong residents organize their own general election for Chief Executive? They already laid the ground work with the non-governmental referendum a few months ago on democracy. The poll could be done online and in person. Then all that needs to happen for democracy to take hold is for government officials to obey the elected CE and ignore the Beijing-appointed CE. It'd be a bloodless, democratic revolution.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the great idea and the concern. I'm just worried that CCP will find that as insubordinate and not accept it. However that will be one interesting proposal
 
P

pla101prc

Senior Member
Brumby said:
I think we all want to see this end peacefully and without incident and that there is an acceptable solution for everyone. So far the general behaviour of the OC movement is encouraging based on what had been reported and so that is a good sign. The problem in my mind is that the longer this drags on, the greater is the scope for miscalculation from both ends. The discomforting part I see is that the OC movement does not seem to have an end game beyond pressing on with their demands. There needs to be a circuit breaker and path to de-escalate which I do not see coming from the OC movement or the authorities. If there is a back room dialogue going on, I haven't seen the rumors.
Click to expand...

mass protest movements have a tendency to filter out its benevolent elements over time. this is because protraction foments skepticism towards moderate tactics, it is human nature to be suspicious of an approach if it does not come to fruition over time. the scary thing about mass propensity to commit violence is that it feeds on itself. some "peaceful" element will begin to withdraw out of fear of their safety, those that remain will thus become marginalized and unable to impose a check on the violence, and they will in turn fear for their safety as violence worsens. eventually you are left with a bunch of drunk and unemployed hooligans burning and looting in the name of democracy. this is what happened in Kiev, not entirely beyond the realm of possibility in HK or any protests of this caliber. how to avoid this you ask? get your points across and go home.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
AssassinsMace said:
Then why are you arguing with me in the first place if you knew expatriates fled Hong Kong? Maybe because you just don't like me? Boo-hoo-hoo.
Click to expand...

I am running out of oxygen but I will try to bring some form of closure to this. I have nothing against you. I just don't agree with some of your views and hence at least I tried to have some form of meaningful exchange. Take for example this simple notion of whether expats were fleeing HK.

Yes expats do move in and out of HK because it is a major financial centre. That is simply a function of people movement in a modern society. I don't have to state or defend the obvious.

This is very different from your statement that expats were fleeing because of the behaviour of HKers. After several exchanges we are still going on about it. That to me is diminishing the value of the conversation.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
So, after a day and still no meaningful change.

Biggest hurdle remains the protester's discourse of being pro HK, anti China, which together comes to pro independence. If they can be pro HK and pro China as well, and limiting their anger to CY Leung and his cronies, the govt will probably pay more attention.
In the end, the govt's big problem with democracy is that it'll be used to overrule important issues such as sovereignty/unity and subversion of state rule. Assure them you won't test that and things will be more amicable.

Wait another day.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
pla101prc said:
ahhh another poor fella who likes to think that his cause is more noble than all that comes before and will somehow transcend the proven patterns of politics. let me give you a few examples: Vancouver? pretty modern, fairly peaceful, doesnt stop hooligans from lighting the streets up after that loss to the Bruins (and screw the bruins may I add), I would say the same for Quebec G8 protesters, more recently Toronto had too put down some hooligans during the G20 which caused a big ruckus. This is Canada we are talkin about, peaceful people, known around the world for being polite (definitely better known than HKers) doesnt stop a few youngsters who believed that their "causes" translate into legal immunity from wrecking the party for everyone.

now i am not saying that HK protesters will inevitably descend into chaos, for i dont have a crystal ball to look into. but neither do you, so for you to resolutely declare this as impossible, based on a childish notion of "good guys do good things", is nothing short of preposterous.
Click to expand...
I never said it's impossible. I'm just saying to fall into the wrong path just to achieve success, aka the ends>means, is unacceptable for HKers.

And for me who's from Vancouver, I certainly understand. However I still won't and don't believe every society is the same and that it succumbs to the same fate eventually. No one knows, but I will stick by and believe in my people and hope for the best, although I am very well clear the realistic chances of things.
 
Brumby

Brumby

Major
Geographer said:
A radical idea popped into my head. Why can't Hong Kong residents organize their own general election for Chief Executive? They already laid the ground work with the non-governmental referendum a few months ago on democracy. The poll could be done online and in person. Then all that needs to happen for democracy to take hold is for government officials to obey the elected CE and ignore the Beijing-appointed CE. It'd be a bloodless, democratic revolution.
Click to expand...

That is unconstitutional and practising lawlessness.
 
A

airsuperiority

Captain
Bltizo said:
So, after a day and still no meaningful change.

Biggest hurdle remains the protester's discourse of being pro HK, anti China, which together comes to pro independence. If they can be pro HK and pro China as well, and limiting their anger to CY Leung and his cronies, the govt will probably pay more attention.
In the end, the govt's big problem with democracy is that it'll be used to overrule important issues such as sovereignty/unity and subversion of state rule. Assure them you won't test that and things will be more amicable.

Wait another day.
Click to expand...

I hope nothing falls out of place, but I hope it all end within a week. Both sides need a way to step down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top