Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Doombreed said:

I like how you gloss over the 99 years of seperate development as "Not China" in between.

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Well he did mention the drugdealers. The return of HK is of course seen as a necessary righting of something that never should have happened in the first place, in the eyes of many Chinese. Judging the legality of various laws and treaties imposed due to colonial wars of past centuries is another can of worms I won't bother opening.

Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, or you really don't get it. Hong Kong might as well be another Singapore. Do you really don't understand why Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese? And don't feel that they are Chinese? Do you feel like it's some form of betrayal?

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Well then they are free to GTFO with whatever they want to carry, so long as they recognize the land itself is Chinese

If they want to be independent or have more autonomy, then they should wait for the long game because they sure as hell aren't getting it in the near term.

Brumby said:

I think if you want to sustain your reasoning you would firstly have to clearly explain the difference between culture and identity in the way you want to present your case. I do think you have some merit in where you are going except that you need to tighten your definition. For example, is there such thing as a Chinese identity and if there is one, what exactly is it? When I think about the Thai Chinese who have assimilated well into the Thai culture over many generations it is an interesting case study.

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Great question!

Culture is simply how one does things in a group. There are may sub cultures within China under the over-arching Chinese culture umbrella. For example. Shanghai and Chongqing would have different sub set of Chinese culture. Hong Kong culture is no doubt a sub set of Chinese culture. So is Singaporean Chinese culture.

Identity, I think is what some mainland members have issue grasping here. Identity is all about self identity. You can be ethnically Chinese with deep rooted Chinese culture. But if you don't self identify as Politically Chinese. Then that's a seperate identity. Singaporean can be Chinese culture. But their identity is Singaporean. Similarly, Hong Konger can be Chinese culture. But they identigy themselves as Hong Konger. Not Chinese.

Doombreed said:

I like how you gloss over the 99 years of seperate development as "Not China" in between.



Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, or you really don't get it. Hong Kong might as well be another Singapore. Do you really don't understand why Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese? And don't feel that they are Chinese? Do you feel like it's some form of betrayal?

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99 years of occupation! occupation by drug dealers! 99 years of living as second class citizen in your own homeland. 99 years of forced indoctrination. 99 years of been taught that everything western is more civilized, more refined, and that you are a little better than your mainland brethren because you are a little closer to the white guys. don't you feel lucky! I feel sorry for fat Jimbo Lai, despite all his wealth, he still feel like a country bumpkin, and he grins like a big baby whenever a white guy pat him on the head.

which HK identity do you want to talk about? back in the 60's, HK was revolting against British rule, calling general strike. 1997, 2008, both period had big surge in patriotism. many academic paper call that HK identity schizophrenic. but really what it really shows is that there is no fixed HK identity. it is in a period of flux. now, the younger generation growing up don't have any memory of what it was like living as second class citizen under colonial rule. all they know is that they are better than their ML brethren, because they are richer and more civilized. but that status is slipping. Must be the Commies fault! and we are still better because...DEMOCRACY!!!!

but let's not go into identity politics please. that's the last refuge of losers worldwide. let's talk about reality. and the reality is HK's future is undeniably linked to the ML. and greater integration between HK and ML is the only hope for HK's future.

Doombreed said:

Great question!

Culture is simply how one does things in a group. There are may sub cultures within China under the over-arching Chinese culture umbrella. For example. Shanghai and Chongqing would have different sub set of Chinese culture. Hong Kong culture is no doubt a sub set of Chinese culture. So is Singaporean Chinese culture.

Identity, I think is what some mainland members have issue grasping here. Identity is all about self identity. You can be ethnically Chinese with deep rooted Chinese culture. But if you don't self identify as Politically Chinese. Then that's a seperate identity. Singaporean can be Chinese culture. But their identity is Singaporean. Similarly, Hong Konger can be Chinese culture. But they identigy themselves as Hong Konger. Not Chinese.

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Your comments seem to dance around a Separatist viewpoint for Hong Kong then, no? The comparison with Singapore and greater Chinese culture seems to hint at that without straight out saying it.

Here's the thing. Chinese identity can take on multiple meanings, some of which you have exemplified - Chinese as a race, culture, history. But the big one not mentioned, added to all the rest that makes the citizens of Hong Kong Chinese, is that Hong Kong is a part of China. It is Chinese territory historically and presently. Your example of Singapore does not check off that particular box, and it's a big one don't you think?

Zool said:

But the big one not mentioned, added to all the rest that makes the citizens of Hong Kong Chinese, is that Hong Kong is a part of China. It is Chinese territory historically and presently.

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Lol. Great insight. I guess the questions everyone overseas is asking is, "Should it?". Self determination as recently demonstrated in Scotland is a distinctly throny issue to discuss. And I think it's haram in this forum to discuss it.

Of cause "Should" and "Could" are two completely different things.

Doombreed said:

Similarly, Hong Konger can be Chinese culture. But they identigy themselves as Hong Konger. Not Chinese.

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I have no problem with your attempt at differentiating between identity and culture until you get to HK as not being Chinese as it present a major hurdle immediately because it draws sovereignty into the conversation unlike Singapore or even Thailand. Even if HK might truly have a unique culture like different parts of China, HK is part of China and whether the people there like it or not their fate is sealed with that of China. In other words, identity in this conversation is tied strongly to allegiance and sense of belonging even though culturally there may be differences like in probably in different parts of China.

I think you have to avoid the trap of stating that HK is not Chinese because you would not be able to realistically defend that position.

shen said:

but really what it really shows is that there is no fixed HK identity. and the reality is HK's future is undeniably linked to the ML. and greater integration between HK and ML is the only hope for HK's future.

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The question for the CCP is how do you sway the HK identity back to one that is harmonious with the mainland identity. As the protest has shown, it's not doing that good of a job at the moment. You can't force someone to take on your identity. Well, you can, and it's called coercion. You have to make your identiy attractive, so others would want to be you.

That is the challenge facing the Chinese people. How do you make your soft power and culture attractive to others?

Doombreed said:

Lol. Great insight. I guess the questions everyone overseas is asking is, "Should it?". Self determination as recently demonstrated in Scotland is a distinctly throny issue to discuss. And I think it's haram in this forum to discuss it.

Of cause "Should" and "Could" are two completely different things.

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Not that it is haram but because the issue with the recent protest in HK was never over separation or even remotely near that topic. It was about local politics and differences. You are steering it way off course by introducing the idea of "should".

Brumby said:

Even if HK might truly have a unique culture like different parts of China, HK is part of China and whether the people there like it or not their fate is sealed with that of China.

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Oh no doubt. But I think the issue is how do you deal with the "or not" camp. Because for the CCP, like it or not, they are Chinese too. How do you deal with your own people that's not happy? Tell them to shut up and take it? Or do you do something to change them from the "or not" camp to the "like it" camp.

Brumby said:

Not that it is haram but because the issue with the recent protest in HK was never over separation or even remotely near that topic. It was about local politics and differences. You are steering it way off course by introducing the idea of "should".

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Here's where I drop the mic. I think, no matter what the protesters say, as they're not dumb, "should" is always in the back of HKers mind. I think that's what they truely want deep down. If you give them a box with a button on it that says "independent Hong Kong with no consequences or repercussions". I wonder how many of them would push it.

Democracy was never the issue. The issue is Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese. So the solution is never, how do you make HKers be satisfied witht he democracy they're given. It's how do you make HKers want to be Chinese.