Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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ancestral

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an excellent opinion piece deconstructing everything wrong with the OC movement and why they are provoking people's ire.


Why this American Expat is 100% against the Protests in Hong Kong
OCT 1
Posted by Cyrus Janssen
Hong-Kong-Protest

There is a revolution happening in Hong Kong right now that has drawn the entire world’s attention to this tiny island in Asia. While many people have made their voices known on social media in support of this movement, my heart is greatly saddened by the efforts of the Hong Kong people. In my opinion the protests are absurd and a travesty to the city.

Many people applaud the Hong Kong locals saying their protests are peaceful, orderly, and a model example for how protests should be carried out. That’s a great compliment to the people of Hong Kong but in my opinion they shouldn’t even be protesting in the first place. The purpose of this article is to give people a broader viewpoint, and challenge them to think outside the box.


The issue at hand is Hong Kong people want the chance to vote for their own leader. The Beijing Communist government ruled last month that people can elect their next leader in 2017, however a pro-Beijing committee must approve the candidates. Hong Kongers fear that this will allow China to screen candidates and as a result they have not accepted this decision.

China's Parliament Building in Beijing
China’s Parliament Building in Beijing

Having lived in Mainland China for 7 years, I bring a different perspective to this argument. I have traveled to Hong Kong numerous times over those 7 years and always had nothing but respect and admiration for Hong Kong. Beijing lent Hong Kong to the British for 100 years (1897-1997) and the city transformed itself into the financial and shipping hub of Asia. During the handover in 1997, everyone feared communist China would regain control and change everything, instead Beijing admired what the British accomplished and kept Hong Kong the same.

In the 17 years following the handover, the Beijing government has done nothing but help Hong Kong grow and having protests like this will only jeopardize Hong Kong’s relationship with China. A relationship that Hong Kong desperately needs. I’m currently writing this post from Scotland and can’t help but draw some comparisons to the recent vote of independence in this country. While many Scots wanted to leave the United Kingdom, the majority of them realized they were stronger together than they were by themselves and voted accordingly. This is exactly the same for Hong Kong, this SAR (Special Administrative Region) is much stronger with support from China.

Crossing the border between Hong Kong and Mainland China
Crossing the border between Hong Kong and Mainland China

My biggest issue with these protests are Hong Kong citizens have never considered how fortunate they are right now. They should be thankful for the tremendous amount of freedom they already have and realize that 1.4 billion Chinese people would give anything to be in their shoes. Here are some examples of what I mean:

1. When Hong Kong’s budget has a surplus (as in 2011) Hong Kong citizens and PR’s (Permanent Residents) receive a complimentary bonus from the government the last one was $HKD 6,000 ($USD 775). Not many countries in the world can run their budget at a surplus and certainly not many would redistribute the surplus back to it’s citizens.

2. The Hong Kong passport gives its citizens visa-free access to 152 countries around the world. Chinese citizens on the other hand can only visit 43 countries without a visa. This puts the Chinese passport on the same level as countries like Congo and Rwanda.

3. Hong Kong citizens enjoy one of the lowest personal income taxes in the world, with the maximum rate fixed at only 15%, China’s maximum (along with many Western countries) is at 45%.

4. The Index of Economic Freedom has ranked Hong Kong the World’s Freest Economy for 20 consecutive years (1995-2014). China currently ranks #137 in the world.

5. Hong Kong has the world’s most developed transportation system in the world. Over 90% of daily travels are on public transport, the highest such percentage in the world. China’s public transport is extensive in major cities but still lacking in rural areas.

6. Hong Kong legal system is completely independent from the legal system of Mainland China. Hong Kong continues to follow the English common law tradition that was established under British rule.

7. Internet censorship in Hong Kong operates under complete different principles and regulations from those of Mainland China. Currently Mainland China forbids Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and many other social media websites.

8. Hong Kong is a tax haven for imports. Everything from Bordeaux wine, Nike shoes, and Apple iPhones are imported into Hong Kong without any duty taxes, thereby making Hong Kong the cheapest place in the world to purchase many Western products. China’s duty taxes are notoriously high (between 50-100%) making it one of the world’s most expensive places to purchase a Western product.

These are just a few of the many benefits citizens of Hong Kong receive. I read this list and find it hard to believe why people would want to protest a government that has provided such amazing benefits. In addition I haven’t even began to describe the social benefits like medical coverage, social security, and disability benefits for Hong Kong citizens that are much better than their neighbors in Mainland China.

Protests with a sign reading "We are Hong Konge, not Chinese"
Protestors with a sign reading “We are Hong Kong People, not Chinese”

My second issue with these protests is the Hong Kong citizens extreme and often raciest views towards Mainland Chinese. There is an opinion floating around Hong Kong that the island would be better without Mainland Chinese. Hong Kong people like to identify themselves as “Hong Kongers” and despise people labeling them as “Chinese”. In actuality all Hong Kong people came from the Mainland, this is a proven fact as every Hong Kong citizen can trace their roots back to the Mainland.

In
In this photo Hong Kong people are verbally attacking Mainland Chinese tourists who wait outside a shopping mall

It is this hatred for Mainland Chinese that have caused Hong Kong citizens to protest against the government in Beijing. It is very naive in my opinion. Don’t Hong Kong citizens realize that Mainland Chinese tourists are the key to their booming economy? Long lines of tourists outside shopping malls are creating jobs, filling hotels rooms, airplane seats, and restaurant chairs as everyone wants to come to and experience this former British colony. As we approach the Chinese October holidays tourism companies are expecting a 30-50% decrease in Mainland Chinese tourism during the holiday. Hong Kong people will feel that they have won a small battle, until they see the effects of slower economy, rising prices, and loss of jobs as a major decrease in tourism will send Hong Kong’s economy into a recession. Over the last 5 years Singapore has emerged as the next hub for Asia’s finance, shipping, and entrepreneurial companies. As long as these protests continue Hong Kong’s economy will deteriorate and Singapore will take even more business away from Hong Kong.

My final issue with the protests is that democratic elections are not always the answer to everyone’s problems, ask any American voter in the 2000 United States Presidential Election. Fourteen years ago American voters participated in one of the closest presidential elections in American history. Democratic candidate Al Gore received 48.4% of the popular vote compared to George Bush’s 47.9%. George Bush lost the popular vote and still became the President of America! This is possible because George Bush won more votes from the Electoral College, which is the institution that actually elects the president in America, not the American voters themselves. Many Americans felt betrayed by the government. They shouldn’t have though this was actually the 4th time in American history a president failed to win the popular vote but went on to become president.

My point in bringing up America’s political system is to show everyone that even America, the world’s most famous democracy, you can have a public vote that still has government intervention, there is no such thing as 100% freedom.

I look around the world and see the unrest between Israel and Palestine, British and Americans hostages being executed by terrorist groups in Syria, the harsh conflict between Russia and Ukraine and feel I am so blessed to live in Hong Kong as an expat and have a tremendous amount of freedom.

I challenge all Hong Kong citizens to think about the opportunities you’ve had compared to your brothers in Mainland China. Protesting against Beijing is not the answer, embrace your Chinese roots, cherish your British influence, and most importantly:

Well said. My response is, they all know the perks of being a Hong Kong citizen. It is exactly this reason that they take it to the street. Why? Because they fear that those perks will be taken away or eroded by Beijing, fueled by a deepening fear and mistrust of communist China. They feel the need to gain more autonomy so as to preserve those perks and freedom.

At the same time, our local media stress the importance of democracy and sing its praise 24/7, all the while belittling China, mainlanders and driving a wedge between the two places. Anything that is so much as associated with mainland China cannot escape from being insulted.

The culprit is the endless brainwashing campaigns and demonization of China by our local media.
 

delft

Brigadier
I took the time to reconsider this whole episode.
The story is that the demonstrators fear that no acceptable candidate will be available to vote for in 2017 but in that case it is enough to vote blanco and insist that the number of blanco votes will be published. I don't think I have seen any reasonable demand from OC or students.
 

Player 0

Junior Member
Considering HK isn't censored and has better internet than mainland China, the protesters have no excuse for their ignorance of the a lot of the basic issues and a lot of the reasons they are criticized for other than they are little more than children who treat this as a game.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It is this hatred for Mainland Chinese that have caused Hong Kong citizens to protest against the government in Beijing. It is very naive in my opinion. Don’t Hong Kong citizens realize that Mainland Chinese tourists are the key to their booming economy? Long lines of tourists outside shopping malls are creating jobs, filling hotels rooms, airplane seats, and restaurant chairs as everyone wants to come to and experience this former British colony. As we approach the Chinese October holidays tourism companies are expecting a 30-50% decrease in Mainland Chinese tourism during the holiday. Hong Kong people will feel that they have won a small battle, until they see the effects of slower economy, rising prices, and loss of jobs as a major decrease in tourism will send Hong Kong’s economy into a recession. Over the last 5 years Singapore has emerged as the next hub for Asia’s finance, shipping, and entrepreneurial companies. As long as these protests continue Hong Kong’s economy will deteriorate and Singapore will take even more business away from Hong Kong.
It's evident from the so-called "OC" protesters that they don't appreciate just how much Hong Kong economically depend on the Mainland. That's not surprising since most of the protesters in pictures and videos look young, with a 17-year old child as one of the leaders.

I challenge all Hong Kong citizens to think about the opportunities you’ve had compared to your brothers in Mainland China. Protesting against Beijing is not the answer, embrace your Chinese roots, cherish your British influence, and most importantly:(keep calm and love Hong Kong)
Very well put, but "cherish your British influence" should be framed as warning to future generations of human beings all over the world the price a people might be forced to pay for being weak, inwards-looking, and technologically backward.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
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an excellent opinion piece deconstructing everything wrong with the OC movement and why they are provoking people's ire.


Why this American Expat is 100% against the Protests in Hong Kong
Posted by Cyrus Janssen

Hong-Kong-Protest
I agree with much of what this author states about the protests...but do have a couple of issues.

The issue at hand is Hong Kong people want the chance to vote for their own leader. The Beijing Communist government ruled last month that people can elect their next leader in 2017, however a pro-Beijing committee must approve the candidates. Hong Kongers fear that this will allow China to screen candidates and as a result they have not accepted this decision.
This is the crux of the issue as it began. And I can understand why the people of Hong Kong would feel betrayed. An agreement for the return of Hong Kong back to China included free elections and did not include the PRC "screening" candidates. One can understand how the people would feel that their elections might be manipulated into only being able to elect those that were acceptable to the government in Beijing.

In the 17 years following the handover, the Beijing government has done nothing but help Hong Kong grow and having protests like this will only jeopardize Hong Kong’s relationship with China.
Be that as it may, the protest is about fundamental issues regarding free electoions. I believe the people in Hong Kong are uinderstandably concerned about what I veiw as a fairly fundamental change.

My biggest issue with these protests are Hong Kong citizens have never considered how fortunate they are right now. They should be thankful for the tremendous amount of freedom they already have and realize that 1.4 billion Chinese people would give anything to be in their shoes. Here are some examples of what I mean:

1. When Hong Kong’s budget has a surplus (as in 2011) Hong Kong citizens and PR’s (Permanent Residents) receive a complimentary bonus from the government the last one was $HKD 6,000 ($USD 775). Not many countries in the world can run their budget at a surplus and certainly not many would redistribute the surplus back to it’s citizens.

2. The Hong Kong passport gives its citizens visa-free access to 152 countries around the world. Chinese citizens on the other hand can only visit 43 countries without a visa. This puts the Chinese passport on the same level as countries like Congo and Rwanda.

3. Hong Kong citizens enjoy one of the lowest personal income taxes in the world, with the maximum rate fixed at only 15%, China’s maximum (along with many Western countries) is at 45%.

4. The Index of Economic Freedom has ranked Hong Kong the World’s Freest Economy for 20 consecutive years (1995-2014). China currently ranks #137 in the world.

5. Hong Kong has the world’s most developed transportation system in the world. Over 90% of daily travels are on public transport, the highest such percentage in the world. China’s public transport is extensive in major cities but still lacking in rural areas.

6. Hong Kong legal system is completely independent from the legal system of Mainland China. Hong Kong continues to follow the English common law tradition that was established under British rule.

7. Internet censorship in Hong Kong operates under complete different principles and regulations from those of Mainland China. Currently Mainland China forbids Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and many other social media websites.

8. Hong Kong is a tax haven for imports. Everything from Bordeaux wine, Nike shoes, and Apple iPhones are imported into Hong Kong without any duty taxes, thereby making Hong Kong the cheapest place in the world to purchase many Western products. China’s duty taxes are notoriously high (between 50-100%) making it one of the world’s most expensive places to purchase a Western product.

These are just a few of the many benefits citizens of Hong Kong receive. I read this list and find it hard to believe why people would want to protest a government that has provided such amazing benefits. In addition I haven’t even began to describe the social benefits like medical coverage, social security, and disability benefits for Hong Kong citizens that are much better than their neighbors in Mainland China.[/quote}I agree with every bit of this.

My second issue with these protests is the Hong Kong citizens extreme and often raciest views towards Mainland Chinese. There is an opinion floating around Hong Kong that the island would be better without Mainland Chinese. Hong Kong people like to identify themselves as “Hong Kongers” and despise people labeling them as “Chinese”. In actuality all Hong Kong people came from the Mainland, this is a proven fact as every Hong Kong citizen can trace their roots back to the Mainland.
I agree that most people in Hong Kong have their roots on the mainland.

I do not agree that the majority of people in Hong Kong are racist. I have also visited Hong Kong on business and I simply did not see it. I have no doubts that there are those who are...but the vast majority are not. Besides, how can anyone whose bloodlines come out of China be racist against Chinese?

Actually, I do not believe what he is getting at is racism. It is more of an intrinsic dislike for, and mistrust of the Chinese government than it is racism. Anything associated with it, these people distrust and dislike.

Now, this is as blind and as broad brushed as racism would be...and actually is as presumptious as saying that most Hong Kongers are racist. It is not what the protests should be about in any case.

If the protest turn into a "rage anbgainst mainland Chinese," then it will mnost surely fail, and I agree with the author that the people who are truly unhappy about the 2017 elections and the screening should work together with the hcinese government to come to a peacefu;l, negotiated solution.

The way the protests are going now are only going to:

1) Cause the Beijing government to dig in its heels.
2) Cause more and more of the working people in Hong Kong to turn against the protestors.

My final issue with the protests is that democratic elections are not always the answer to everyone’s problems, ask any American voter in the 2000 United States Presidential Election. Fourteen years ago American voters participated in one of the closest presidential elections in American history. Democratic candidate Al Gore received 48.4% of the popular vote compared to George Bush’s 47.9%. George Bush lost the popular vote and still became the President of America! This is possible because George Bush won more votes from the Electoral College, which is the institution that actually elects the president in America, not the American voters themselves. Many Americans felt betrayed by the government. They shouldn’t have though this was actually the 4th time in American history a president failed to win the popular vote but went on to become president.
Here I believe the author is comparing apples and oranges. betrween what is happening in Hong Kong and what transpired in the US in 2000.

1st, the US Constitution is the supreme law in the United States. The US has ALWAYS had the Electroal College elect presidents. It is how the constitution was wrtten from the start. That system allows each state to determine how they will allocate their electoral votes. At one time most of them had their State Senates cast the votes. Now they are allocated by the state vote in the election itself, and the larger states have more electroal votes. It has never, ever been a national popular vote.

The way Bush won (as it happened in three other instances) was to carry the particular states that gave him the majority of electoral votes. US law has never held a national pluristic presidential election. Which leads to my final point.

Player 0;308671My point in bringing up America’s political system is to show everyone that even America said:
The author displays his ignorance of the fundamental nature of the American system here. it is NOT a democracy, and never has been. You will not find that word in the US Constitution. The US Constitution guarantess the United States a "Republic." The US is Republican form of government and the founders of the nation who wrote the constitution warned against ever having a pure democracy.

Some people may think the difference is minor.

It is not. It is a major difference.

In any pure democracy you end up with a tyranny of the majority. The majority makes the laws and the minority must live with them.

That type of circumstance was once described as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

The US government was carefully formed to avoid such circumstances and to gauruntee every coitizen their unalienable rights.

The three branches of the Federal governmen check and balances themselves, which itself is further checked by State governments. People are elected to represent their constitutuents, and they have to regularly be elected to do so, and to uphold the Constitution which is what they all take an oath to do. It has been engineered to avoid the tyranny of the majority so that even the smallest minorities have their unalienable rights which are established in the Bill of Rights.

Now, it is true that the US, 70 years after its founding, had to fight a horrible Civil War to ensure this. And it cost upwards of a million soldiers lives on both sides to vouch safe it and end the slavery issue. But throughout all of that, the US President was never elected by a national "majority." The American people who were upset in 2000 were simply ignorant of their own history and government form, and once the votes in Florida were tabulated and showed Bush winning there, the Supreme Court was absolutely going to find him the winner, irrespective of what the national totals were.

Anyhow, I believe that the original sentiment regarding the elections in Hong Kong has now been hijacked by the type of sentiments that spurred on the Occupy movements in the US...and such sentiments will cause the original purpose of the issue to be lost amongst the "Occupy," agenda. IMHO, they have turned the entire thing into a muuch broader, and much more disruptive and potentially damaging thing.

But that's just my opinion.
 

Doombreed

Junior Member
I think the main issue is hope.

The mainland is in the ascension phase. People there believes that tomorrow will be better than today. There is hope. Whereas Hong Kong is in decline. Particularly when compared with other Mainland cities that are gaining in prominence. Staying still, is going backwards. The feeling in Hong Kong, particularly in relation to their relative importance to other Chinese cities is that their glory days are behind them. Tomorrow, probably is not going to be better than today. There is a lost of hope.

And this is where the passion of the protests comes from. The move by CCP is seen by Hong Kongers as taking away what little hope they have for a better tomorrow.

That must cuts.
 

Engineer

Major
This is the crux of the issue as it began. And I can understand why the people of Hong Kong would feel betrayed. An agreement for the return of Hong Kong back to China included free elections and did not include the PRC "screening" candidates. One can understand how the people would feel that their elections might be manipulated into only being able to elect those that were acceptable to the government in Beijing.

Actually, the agreement kind of did. Not only that, Hong Kong's constitution stipulates that a successfully elected candidate must be officially appointed by China to become chief executive. This is kind of a veto power. I don't think people in Hong Kong can swallow their pride if such veto power ever gets exercised, so screening is arguably the best way. Similarily, the National People Congress can also veto laws passed by Hong Kong's legislative council. So the crux of the issue is that the protesters didn't read Basic Law to begin with and simply parrot what the pan-democrats claimed.
 
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shen

Senior Member
I think the main issue is hope.

The mainland is in the ascension phase. People there believes that tomorrow will be better than today. There is hope. Whereas Hong Kong is in decline. Particularly when compared with other Mainland cities that are gaining in prominence. Staying still, is going backwards. The feeling in Hong Kong, particularly in relation to their relative importance to other Chinese cities is that their glory days are behind them. Tomorrow, probably is not going to be better than today. There is a lost of hope.

And this is where the passion of the protests comes from. The move by CCP is seen by Hong Kongers as taking away what little hope they have for a better tomorrow.

That must cuts.

Hong Kong's hope and future lie with China. Shedding the colonial baggage, greater integration with the mainland, there lies hope and the future.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Jeff, my friend, I have to take issue with this part of your statement:

This is the crux of the issue as it began. And I can understand why the people of Hong Kong would feel betrayed. An agreement for the return of Hong Kong back to China included free elections and did not include the PRC "screening" candidates. One can understand how the people would feel that their elections might be manipulated into only being able to elect those that were acceptable to the government in Beijing.

Be that as it may, the protest is about fundamental issues regarding free electoions. I believe the people in Hong Kong are uinderstandably concerned about what I veiw as a fairly fundamental change.
According to Annex I of the HK Basic Law, Bejing does indeed has some say, maybe even veto powers, in HK Chief Executive qualifications.

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Annex I, Sections 1-6 does indeed proscribe some powers to the CCP in HK Chief Executive elections. There's some room to debate on the extend of those rights, but there's no doubt the CCP has some rights. If I didn't misread Annex I, then the young protesters (that's the vast majority of OC people the world saw), has no clue what Beijing is really obligated to do (on HK CE elections).

Annex I : Method for the Selection of the Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region

1. The Chief Executive shall be elected by a broadly representative Election Committee in accordance with this Law and appointed by the Central People's Government.

#2. The Election Committee shall be composed of 800 members from the following sectors:
Industrial, commercial and financial sectors 200
The professions 200
Labour, social services, religious and other sectors 200
Members of the Legislative Council, representatives of district-based organizations, Hong Kong deputies to the National People's Congress, and representatives of Hong Kong members of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference 200

The term of office of the Election Committee shall be five years.

3. The delimitation of the various sectors, the organizations in each sector eligible to return Election Committee members and the number of such members returned by each of these organizations shall be prescribed by an electoral law enacted by the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region in accordance with the principles of democracy and openness.

Corporate bodies in various sectors shall, on their own, elect members to the Election Committee, in accordance with the number of seats allocated and the election method as prescribed by the electoral law.

Members of the Election Committee shall vote in their individual capacities.

#4. Candidates for the office of Chief Executive may be nominated jointly by not less than 100 members of the Election Committee. Each member may nominate only one candidate.

5. The Election Committee shall, on the basis of the list of nominees, elect the Chief Executive designate by secret ballot on a one-person-one-vote basis. The specific election method shall be prescribed by the electoral law.

6. The first Chief Executive shall be selected in accordance with the Decision of the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China on the Method for the Formation of the First Government and the First Legislative Council of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region.

*7. If there is a need to amend the method for selecting the Chief Executives for the terms subsequent to the year 2007, such amendments must be made with the endorsement of a two-thirds majority of all the members of the Legislative Council and the consent of the Chief Executive, and they shall be reported to the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress for approval.
 
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