Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

shen said:

Hong Kong's hope and future lie with China. Shedding the colonial baggage, greater integration with the mainland, there lies hope and the future.

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And shedding their self-identity. That is a painful and cathartic process and I'm not sure it will happen. It's like saying if you stop being Chinese and adopt Japanese culture, China will do better. Also I don't think it's a matter of will. You can't not be Chinese if you tried. Similarly, Hong Kongers can't not be Hong Kongers if they tried.

shen said:

Can that be changed?

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Never. It's a Tribal thing. One of the basest of all human needs. The identification of us and them.

Doombreed said:

And shedding their self-identity. That is a painful and cathartic process and I'm not sure it will happen. It's like saying if you stop being Chinese and adopt Japanese culture, China will do better. Also I don't think it's a matter of will. You can't not be Chinese if you tried. Similarly, Hong Kongers can't not be Hong Kongers if they tried.

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BS. That's exactly what's happening in cities all over China. Young people, both educated and uneducated are moving around the country, working and living and marrying in cities far away from their hometown/city. This is a huge and unprecedented demographic change in Chinese history. Local identities are been diluted everywhere in China, and that's for the better.
I was born in lived in Shanghai for the first half of my life. One used to only hear Shanghainese on Shanghai street, not unlike the status of Cantonese in HK. Now one hear Mandarin at least as much as Shanghainese. When I go into a shop in Shanghai, I always default to Mandarin because the shop clerk is almost certainly not a Shanghai native. On Shanghai subway, I see young professionals from all other China. Sure there are some grumbling from the local, especially the older people, but most see the process as inevitable and positive. Why can't a similar process happen in Hong Kong?
Btw, when I go to Hong Kong, I also feel perfectly at home, other than the tiny living space.

Doombreed said:

And shedding their self-identity. That is a painful and cathartic process and I'm not sure it will happen. It's like saying if you stop being Chinese and adopt Japanese culture, China will do better. Also I don't think it's a matter of will. You can't not be Chinese if you tried. Similarly, Hong Kongers can't not be Hong Kongers if they tried.

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That's just nonsense.

Chinese and Japanese are different nationalities and races.

Hong Kong is a part of China and Hong Kong's inhabitants are overwhelmingly Chinese.

One can maintain a local HK identity while not forgetting about one's broader Chinese heritage and identy.

Its more like New Yorkers being proud of being New Yorkers but also proud of being American.

The notion that HK identity could only be preserved and maintained by rejecting one's Chinese identy makes absolutely no sense, and is a loathsome fabrication by those who are trying to undermine and damage China.

To those people, I say bugger off you live in HK or any other Chinese territory, hand over your passport/visa upon departure and never come back. If you don't live in Chinese territory, kindly un-poke your nose from affairs that don't concern you and mind your own bloody business.

plawolf said:

Hong Kong is a part of China and Hong Kong's inhabitants are overwhelmingly Chinese.

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Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese too. But there is a distinct and unique Singaporean Chinese culture.

plawolf said:

One can maintain a local HK identity while not forgetting about one's broader Chinese heritage and identy.

Its more like New Yorkers being proud of being New Yorkers but also proud of being American.

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The New Yorker is more like Shanghainese in this analogy. But I think in your reaction to my post, it perfectly illustrates the challenge between Mainland Chinese and Hong Kongers. You see them as just another Chinese, whereas they see themselves as more like Singaporean than Chinese. Chinese to you covers both ethnicity and culture. Where as the Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese, but culturally distinct. Again. Think Singaporean . The difference is that Singapore wasn't handed back to China, whereas Hong Kong was. And here lays the conflict.

plawolf said:

The notion that HK identity could only be preserved and maintained by rejecting one's Chinese identy makes absolutely no sense, and is a loathsome fabrication by those who are trying to undermine and damage China.

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I'm not saying that "HK identity could only be preserved and maintained". I'm saying that HK has a unique and distinct cultural identity wether you like it or not. There's never a Chinese identity to reject. They never had a Chinese identity. Ethnically Chinese. Yes. Chinese identity. No. More so, THEY would like to preseve and maintain their cultural identity. It's not like they want to assimilate, and the CCP want to preserve their culture like some native american tribe.

plawolf said:

To those people, I say bugger off you live in HK or any other Chinese territory, hand over your passport/visa upon departure and never come back. If you don't live in Chinese territory, kindly un-poke your nose from affairs that don't concern you and mind your own bloody business.

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Of cause the CCP's control is absolute and complete. We couldn't try to change your affairs if we tried. All I'm trying to explain, is that you feel the HK people betrayed you because they rejected their Chinese identity, when they never had a Chinese identity in the first place. There's nothing to betray.

Doombreed said:

Singapore is overwhelmingly Chinese too. But there is a distinct and unique Singaporean Chinese culture.

The New Yorker is more like Shanghainese in this analogy. But I think in your reaction to my post, it perfectly illustrates the challenge between Mainland Chinese and Hong Kongers. You see them as just another Chinese, whereas they see themselves as more like Singaporean than Chinese. Chinese to you covers both ethnicity and culture. Where as the Hong Kongers are ethnically Chinese, but culturally distinct. Again. Think Singaporean . The difference is that Singapore wasn't handed back to China, whereas Hong Kong was. And here lays the conflict.

I'm not saying that "HK identity could only be preserved and maintained". I'm saying that HK has a unique and distinct cultural identity wether you like it or not. There's never a Chinese identity to reject. They never had a Chinese identity. Ethnically Chinese. Yes. Chinese identity. No. More so, THEY would like to preseve and maintain their cultural identity. It's not like they want to assimilate, and the CCP want to preserve their culture like some native american tribe.



Of cause the CCP's control is absolute and complete. We couldn't try to change your affairs if we tried. All I'm trying to explain, is that you feel the HK people betrayed you because they rejected their Chinese identity, when they never had a Chinese identity in the first place. There's nothing to betray.

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Obvious straw man, Singapore was never Chinese territory. Chinese immigrants moved to Singapore. Chinese immigrants also moved to the United States, Australia,etc. But that doesn't make Singapore part of China, just like NYC Chinatown is not part of China.
Hong Kong was undisputed Chinese territory before the British drug dealers came, and is indisputably Chinese territory today. Of course there is a distinct Hong Kong culture, just like there is a distinct Shanghai culture, or Beijing culture, but they are all part of the Chinese culture. Similarly if the US, there are east coast and west coast culture, southern culture, Texas culture, Tex-Mex culture, but they are all part of the American culture.

On the housing shortage in HK, why don't the central government allow HK residents to buy or rent apartments in Shenzhen? For the same price of a tiny apartment in HK, you can have a huge new apartment in Shenzhen. Even today, the commute is not that bad, about two hours one way? That's perfectly doable especially since many office workers can increasingly work from home these days. Once the high speed rail link is complete, the commute would be even less.
Attracting young HK residents with the prospect of cheap housing in ML would be a great first step to further the integration of HK and ML.

shen said:

On the housing shortage in HK, why don't the central government allow HK residents to buy or rent apartments in Shenzhen? For the same price of a tiny apartment in HK, you can have a huge new apartment in Shenzhen. Even today, the commute is not that bad, about two hours one way? That's perfectly doable especially since many office workers can increasingly work from home these days. Once the high speed rail link is complete, the commute would be even less.
Attracting young HK residents with the prospect of cheap housing in ML would be a great first step to further the integration of HK and ML.

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I've always wondered if the central govt would ever allow Hong Kong to add territory, like the New New Territories. It would still be sovereign Chinese territory at the end of the day.

Doombreed said:

I'm not saying that "HK identity could only be preserved and maintained". I'm saying that HK has a unique and distinct cultural identity wether you like it or not. There's never a Chinese identity to reject. They never had a Chinese identity. Ethnically Chinese. Yes. Chinese identity. No. More so, THEY would like to preseve and maintain their cultural identity. It's not like they want to assimilate, and the CCP want to preserve their culture like some native american tribe.

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I think if you want to sustain your reasoning you would firstly have to clearly explain the difference between culture and identity in the way you want to present your case. I do think you have some merit in where you are going except that you need to tighten your definition. For example, is there such thing as a Chinese identity and if there is one, what exactly is it? When I think about the Thai Chinese who have assimilated well into the Thai culture over many generations it is an interesting case study.

shen said:

Hong Kong was undisputed Chinese territory before the British drug dealers came, and is indisputably Chinese territory today.

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I like how you gloss over the 99 years of seperate development as "Not China" in between.

shen said:

Of course there is a distinct Hong Kong culture, just like there is a distinct Shanghai culture, or Beijing culture, but they are all part of the Chinese culture.

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Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse, or you really don't get it. Hong Kong might as well be another Singapore. Do you really don't understand why Hong Kong don't want to be Chinese? And don't feel that they are Chinese? Do you feel like it's some form of betrayal?