Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

Doombreed said:

Oh no doubt. But I think the issue is how do you deal with the "or not" camp. Because for the CCP, like it or not, they are Chinese too. How do you deal with your own people that's not happy? Tell them to shut up and take it? Or do you do something to change them from the "or not" camp to the "like it" camp.

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rather than ask what the CCP can do (I think they can do a lot more), ask what HKer can do. If HK continue on this trajectory, they are F**Ked. Protest is not going to do anything as recent events have shown. Western countries don't give a sh*t about HK, except as a launch pad to destabilize China (even then not much, less than $1 million American support to subversive groups in HK vs $5 billions to Ukraine).

Doombreed said:

Lol. Great insight. I guess the questions everyone overseas is asking is, "Should it?". Self determination as recently demonstrated in Scotland is a distinctly throny issue to discuss. And I think it's haram in this forum to discuss it.

Of cause "Should" and "Could" are two completely different things.

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They have a right to their identity, but the territory is Chinese in law. You can argue about changing HK's Basic Law, but whether they "should" will change depending on time. It took a century for HK to become the way it is today, why not wait another hundred years and see what the opinion is? So many events in history could be different if disputes had been settled through respecting the opinion of the "locals" rather than respecting the power of a barrel.

In the end, it is one's strategic long term goals which will determine the philosophical righteousness of these suggestions, and there is a winner and loser in these outcomes.

The most immediate effect of an independent HK is of course one of weakening China territorially, geopolitically, and politically, so the degree to which one supports such a notion naturally reflects on their hopes of the success and future prospects of China.

The protest is destine to fail if you antagonize the regular citizen and disrupt the society. Protest itself is meant to disrupt life of the ordinary citizen so that the said citizen would join your fight, because they also were unhappy and support the cause.

The videos that show protester kind of show the sad state of some young people. Its like, they have no objective, they join in because there is a crowd and they won't be lonely. This is like back in the 80 and 90 how the triad is recruiting young people by providing a sense of belonging to a cause or a group.

In regarding the Tycoon, government don't really need to get involve anymore. The Chinese are coming to take over some of the business. It is kind of funny that whenever government tried to intervene to help the economy, people would always cry out that this is against free market and not they are yelling out for more social housing when the said people fail to make money and feel the economic pressure.

Zool said:

Your comments seem to dance around a Separatist viewpoint for Hong Kong then, no? The comparison with Singapore and greater Chinese culture seems to hint at that without straight out saying it.

Here's the thing. Chinese identity can take on multiple meanings, some of which you have exemplified - Chinese as a race, culture, history. But the big one not mentioned, added to all the rest that makes the citizens of Hong Kong Chinese, is that Hong Kong is a part of China. It is Chinese territory historically and presently. Your example of Singapore does not check off that particular box, and it's a big one don't you think?

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Doombreed said:

Lol. Great insight. I guess the questions everyone overseas is asking is, "Should it?". Self determination as recently demonstrated in Scotland is a distinctly throny issue to discuss. And I think it's haram in this forum to discuss it.

Of cause "Should" and "Could" are two completely different things.

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So the Singapore example does not work, we are now on to the UK. Okay then Doombreed, refresh my memory. The folks in Scotland today are still British Citizens living in the territory of the United Kingdom, correct? I don't think your new example works well against my point that Hong Kong is historically and importantly presently Chinese Territory and therefore, along with everything else (Race, Culture, History etc) makes it's citizens Chinese. Which is the fundamental point your previous posts have argued against.

As for Self Determination, that's a big can of worms. There are countries around the world - more than a few - of varying styles of government that have some % population that would like to create their own state. Solve that in an equitable way for me for all those countries including China, that accounts for the rights and well being of those happy and unhappy in their current country, then come talk to me. One liners about a topic like Self Determination, on their own, do not make a good defence for an argument.

Doombreed said:

Here's where I drop the mic. I think, no matter what the protesters say, as they're not dumb, "should" is always in the back of HKers mind. I think that's what they truely want deep down. If you give them a box with a button on it that says "independent Hong Kong with no consequences or repercussions". I wonder how many of them would push it.

Democracy was never the issue. The issue is Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese. So the solution is never, how do you make HKers be satisfied witht he democracy they're given. It's how do you make HKers want to be Chinese.

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Time, accumulation of power, science, technology, PR, and gradual social development.

people's desires can change as the population and environment changes, and one can't objectively say whether a desire "should" be allowed, we can only speculate as to the material effects on various parties of an action. In this case, it is in China's interest for some of HK's populace's silent preference for independence to be ignored in favour of changing the long term opinion of the future HK populace and thus safeguarding Chinese interests.
It is in the interests of China's enemies to see HK as independent of China and as a base for destabilization of the Chinese government.

Doombreed said:

Oh no doubt. But I think the issue is how do you deal with the "or not" camp. Because for the CCP, like it or not, they are Chinese too. How do you deal with your own people that's not happy? Tell them to shut up and take it? Or do you do something to change them from the "or not" camp to the "like it" camp.

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Every country has their own set of problems and priorities and that is something that the HKSAR and Beijing has to work through on how to deal with them given the degree of dissatisfaction that gave rise to the protest. However there are clearly 2 different drivers leading to the recent protest but being viewed in different light by those who in my view are ignorant of local politics.

Doombreed said:

Democracy was never the issue. The issue is Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese. So the solution is never, how do you make HKers be satisfied witht he democracy they're given. It's how do you make HKers want to be Chinese.

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You need to articulate a case to support your statement that "Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese". As is, it is made without warrant.

Brumby said:

You need to articulate a case to support your statement that "Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese". As is, it is made without warrant.

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Well that's simple, just look at those who rally under the Colonial Colors during every anti-government rallies, and any anti-Mainlander demonstrations as late as this July 1st rallies. Separatism does exist in HK, though it's still yet to be proven whether it's just a fad or serious, but Beijing is more than willing to paint a picture as a clear and present threat.

But to be fair and on-topic in this case, those Colonial Colors were not seen (at least, not photographed) in this insurgency.

MwRYum said:

Well that's simple, just look at those who rally under the Colonial Colors during every anti-government rallies, and any anti-Mainlander demonstrations as late as this July 1st rallies. Separatism does exist in HK, though it's still yet to be proven whether it's just a fad or serious, but Beijing is more than willing to paint a picture as a clear and present threat.

But to be fair and on-topic in this case, those Colonial Colors were not seen (at least, not photographed) in this insurgency.

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Colonial Colors (really a modified colonial color without the British part) is used by the older anti-CCP but very much Chinese part of the HK dissident. That part of HK is really just the reactionary leftover, they hate western liberalism as much as they distrust CCP. welcome to the 21st century.

MwRYum said:

Well that's simple, just look at those who rally under the Colonial Colors during every anti-government rallies, and any anti-Mainlander demonstrations as late as this July 1st rallies. Separatism does exist in HK, though it's still yet to be proven whether it's just a fad or serious, but Beijing is more than willing to paint a picture as a clear and present threat.

But to be fair and on-topic in this case, those Colonial Colors were not seen (at least, not photographed) in this insurgency.

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All it demonstrates is that there are all kinds of people doing different things at "anti" rallies. It is stretching imagination to its limit to conclude Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese.