Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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superdog

Junior Member
Well that's simple, just look at those who rally under the Colonial Colors during every anti-government rallies, and any anti-Mainlander demonstrations as late as this July 1st rallies. Separatism does exist in HK, though it's still yet to be proven whether it's just a fad or serious, but Beijing is more than willing to paint a picture as a clear and present threat.

But to be fair and on-topic in this case, those Colonial Colors were not seen (at least, not photographed) in this insurgency.
At minimum it should be specified that "SOME" Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese. As a HK-er myself I don't think the separatist movement has ever been anywhere near of becoming a mainstream opinion. It's like saying "Americans want to embrace socialism".
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Every country has their own set of problems and priorities and that is something that the HKSAR and Beijing has to work through on how to deal with them given the degree of dissatisfaction that gave rise to the protest. However there are clearly 2 different drivers leading to the recent protest but being viewed in different light by those who in my view are ignorant of local politics.

The main problem facing Hong Kong residents is economic and not lack of democracy. Hong Kong was in the catbird seat when China first emerged from isolation, because it had the business network, infrastructure, and acumen to be China's economic bridge to the world. With the ascensions of cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Chengdu, Chongqing, and Harbin, Hong Kong lost its preeminence as the financial capital of China, and living standards of average Hong Kongers, relative to China, declined. The adjustment process is happening in real time, and the economic dependency of Hong Kong on China will be even more pronounced in the coming decades.

A second set of problems, income disparity and wealth gap, is also economic and the solution lies squarely with Hong Kong citizens and their local government. Beijing can't really get involved in any visible way, because the Communist Overlords know they would be blamed for any and all problems, real or imagined, and received little to no credit for anything good. The best Hong Kong people could probably expect from the CCP is a financial lifeline to prevent economic collapse.

The dirty little secret is these problems would still be there even if Hong Kong had free and open multiparty elections. To be clear, I'm for democracy in Hong Kong with universal suffrage and free multiparty elections, under the aegis of "one country, many systems." But IMHO, the recent "OC" protest is more about economics than democracy.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Well that's simple, just look at those who rally under the Colonial Colors during every anti-government rallies, and any anti-Mainlander demonstrations as late as this July 1st rallies. Separatism does exist in HK, though it's still yet to be proven whether it's just a fad or serious, but Beijing is more than willing to paint a picture as a clear and present threat.
It that the majority sentiment or a minority? It only strengthens the "most Hong Kongers don't want to be Chinese" argument if that's how most Hong Kong people think. And if you answer in the affirmative, then I want to see some poll data or academic research.
 

Brumby

Major
The dirty little secret is these problems would still be there even if Hong Kong had free and open multiparty elections. To be clear, I'm for democracy in Hong Kong with universal suffrage and free multiparty elections, under the aegis of "one country, many systems." But IMHO, the recent "OC" protest is more about economics than democracy.

Agree. As I indicated, there were 2 drivers. The broader students movement with a bunch of economic issues and the misdirected notion that a revamped democratic process will solve the economic problems. The OC movement with more politically inclined issues but lacking broader community buy-in. Having said that, some of the more prevalent economic issues in HK are a result of the administration being more intrinsically linked with special interest groups resulting in increasing economic disparity within HK. A more transparent and accountable democratic process would go in some way to address this problem.
 

MwRYum

Major
Agree. As I indicated, there were 2 drivers. The broader students movement with a bunch of economic issues and the misdirected notion that a revamped democratic process will solve the economic problems. The OC movement with more politically inclined issues but lacking broader community buy-in. Having said that, some of the more prevalent economic issues in HK are a result of the administration being more intrinsically linked with special interest groups resulting in increasing economic disparity within HK. A more transparent and accountable democratic process would go in some way to address this problem.

The prevailing message by the anti-government and its media is that "universal suffrage will solve all problems of HK" but the better informed knows it takes more than just universal suffrage - for one, HK has no law regulating political parties and on the matter of political donations, so while in Western nations this matter is murky grey at best (most politicians are lawyers to begin with, and what else they'd be good at than skirting the law, eh?), in HK it's almost pitch black until "somebody" dug up dirt and throw it into the light, as proven in the series of political scandals (naturally the anti-government factions cried foul but they were worse than lousy in coming clean on the accusations) before the current insurgency steals the show.

And neither side would agreed in pushing forward any law to regulate political parties (which has been on the lips of them political animals at least once a year but quickly forgotten), and with the LegCo set to be paralyse by filibuster all the way till 2016 anyway, it won't be even going to see the light of day.

The primo uno problem of HK problem is economy, which has everything to do with the tycoons and their monopolies / cartels, all the way down to the very economic structure of HK. Yet, the anti-government politicians, who their veterans are mostly union men, took the classic British union route of making the capitalists outright class enemies, instead of the German model of both sides working it out, so who could blame the tycoons flock to Beijing to have a nice chat with Xi Jinping?
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
What I've been reading about this Jimmy Lai guy is he's a wannabe Roger Ailes and he wants the freedom to use his media companies to control politics therefore control Hong Kong. He can't do that with the communists in control. Also I read he's the one that paid for Sarah Palin's trip to Hong Kong to do a speech where she turned it to mean she had foreign policy experience. BTW, that was her first trip outside the US.
 

Brumby

Major
The prevailing message by the anti-government and its media is that "universal suffrage will solve all problems of HK"

Where did you picked up the prevailing message that universal suffrage is the silver bullet? I generally just read main stream news and not fringe.
 

ancestral

New Member
What I've been reading about this Jimmy Lai guy is he's a wannabe Roger Ailes and he wants the freedom to use his media companies to control politics therefore control Hong Kong. He can't do that with the communists in control. Also I read he's the one that paid for Sarah Palin's trip to Hong Kong to do a speech where she turned it to mean she had foreign policy experience. BTW, that was her first trip outside the US.

Before Hong Kong's massive "civil disobedience" campaign broke out on 9/29, there's a consecutive 12-day of bear market that broke historical record. Hong Kong's Hang Seng's volatility index rose 50.45 per cent last month, the biggest monthly increase since September 2011. Under this background, October's future short skyrocketed on 9/25, coinciding with the massive protest on 9/27 that happened 4 days ahead of planned schedule. Apparently, "speculators" with inside knowledge and heads up won big. However, such a movement on this massive scale cannot be spontaneous. So who's behind it and who's tipping the speculators?

Hong Kong media mogul, Jimmy Lai Chee-ying, is known to be a supporter and financial backer of this movement. Just months before the Occupy movement, a scandal broke out that links several prominent "pan-democrat" lawmakers with Jimmy Lai. They allegedly received several million of "donations" from Lai "off the record". Jimmy Lai himself has a strong U.S. background. Mark Simon, Lai's right hand man at Next Media, Lai's media company that runs Hong Kong's Apple Daily, has strong ties with the CIA.

=========Link with former World Bank President============

"My dad was CIA for 35 years"; "My internship with CIA, four years with naval intelligence…"; "[Next Media] work on human rights cases and have regular fights with many non-democratic regimes in Asia." Comments like these were leaked earlier in a correspondence and job-application letters from Mark Simon.

The leaked documents also seemed to suggest Simon helped Lai build relations with right-wing US politicians. In one case, Simon helped set up a meeting between former Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin and a group of "pan-democrats" during her visit to Hong Kong in 2009.

In June, the local press unearthed another link between Lai and Paul Wolfowitz, the former No. 2 in the US Defence Department under President George W. Bush and former World Bank president. The two of them and Simon reportedly spent five hours on a yacht off Sai Kung, Hong Kong. A document indicates that Lai paid Paul Wolfowitz US$75,000. According to a July 22, 2013, remittance notice by the Shanghai Commercial and Savings Bank, Wolfowitz received the money from Lai as "compensation for services in regards to Myanmar".

===========Investment in Myanmar============

In his trip to Myanmar, Lai also met at least five cabinet members and the chairman of Myanmar's central bank last year, documents indicate. The documents show that real estate investments were on Lai's agenda during multiple trips to Myanmar last year. They show that Lai was in talks over two developments in the nation's commercial centre, Yangon.

His Hong Kong-registered company Best Combo was planning to build two towers in Yangon with local developer Shambhala Group, run by the established businessman Phone Win. Speaking by telephone, Phone Win confirmed the existence of these projects but told South China Morning Post that they were still at a planning stage. The documents show that Lai transferred US$213,000 to an NGO run by Phone Win and his wife for an entrepreneurship campaign in Myanmar.

=============Lai paid 3.5 million to Occupy Central organisers==========

According to reports, Lai has allegedly paid 3.5 million dollars to the Occupy Central organisers in addition to extensive advice and propaganda material. Lai dismissed the organisers in private as "idealist scholars" who "couldn't make the cut without help". The emails were leaked by the same person who sent documents detailing the Next Media chairman's political donations to various pan-democrats.

Emails dated July 8, 2013, suggest the Next Media group had helped to produce an animation showing how to resist police in case force was used to disperse people in a mass protest. In an email the following day, the Reverend Chu Yiu-ming, one of the Occupy Central co-organiser, said to Lai that it was too early to go into the "technical aspects" and talked about a campaign to "materialise the spirits of love and peace", which Lai said he found "totally confused".

==========Robert Mundell seen accompanying Lai in Hong Kong=======

Along with the report that suggests Lai's cozy relationship with Myanmar, it raises the question of whether Lai is actively working for the CIA to incite "color revolutions" in Asia. Current affairs commentator Johnny Lau Yui-siu said the information would reinforce the belief that Lai, with the support of the United States, was orchestrating anti-China and anti-establishment campaigns in Hong Kong. During the campaign, Lai was also photographed alongside Robert Mundell, father of the Euro, in his car in Hong Kong.

==============Wong Chi-fung groomed by the U.S.===========

Another major player in the mass protest is the eighteen year-old Joshua Wong Chi-fung, founder of the activist group Scholarism. Wong Chi-fung, despite his age, is being groomed and funded by the U.S. as the future leader in Hong Kong's political scene. Here's a chronology of Wong's emergence.

---In May 2011,Scholarism was founded.

---In July of the same year,American Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong invited Wong and his parents to live in a luxury suite in Macau's Venetian Hotel.

---In August 2012, Stephen M. Young, Consul General of the Consulate General of the United States in Hong Kong and Civic Party chairperson Audrey Eu Yuet-mee started meeting with Wong's father, Roger Wong. They met four times in total, each lasting for up to 3 hours. In the same month, fifty "Scholarism" members launched the "Occupy Government HQ" operation.

---In November 2012, Tin Dalton, an official from U.S. Consulate General met with Wong to discuss matters regarding his scholarship to study in the U.S..

---In November 2012, National Endowment for Democracy sponsored Wong 100,000 U.S. dollar. The fund was delivered through an organization called "Justice & Peace Commission of the H.K. Catholic Diocese".

---In November 2012, the U.S. Consulate General invited Wong and members of "Scholarism" to a U.S. Marine combat lesson.

---In March 2014, Wong received 1.6 million HK dollar from an anonymous person.

---In May 2014, National Endowment for Democracy promised Wong in case he is arrested by the police, they will help arrange and fully sponsor their study in the U.S. or U.K.

---In July 2014, Wong failed to qualify for college in public exams. Hong Kong lawmakers and professors called for a qualification exemption for Wong.

---In August 2014, Wong traveled to Macau and resided in Sheraton Hotel, reportedly to meet with someone.

---In August 2014, "Scholarism" and Hong Kong Federation of Students discussed the Hong Kong Class Boycott Campaign

---In September 2014, both groups launched the Class Boycott Campaign that involved middle schoolers and undergraduates.

---In September 2014, Wong expressed gratitude to Wong Dan, the leader of the Chinese democracy movement and one of the student leaders in the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. Wong said Wong Dan has kept close contact with him, helping him not only academically, but also politically. Wong Dan taught him how to lead "Scholarism". All of Wong's speeches were proofread or drafted by Wong Dan himself. Wong said he regularly report to Wong Dan about his works in Hong Kong.​


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