Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

delft said:

The financial economy, in short hand called Wall Street, is also rigged for those with power and detrimental for the 99%. Mr Xi probably likes to show to the mainlanders how much better a regulated economy is, especially one improved by his anti-corruption campaign, than the capitalist economy of Hong Kong.

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unfortunately when PRC made the deal of one country two systems, leaving the colonial economy model alone, at least for now, was part of the deal. when I get off the plane in HK, it always piss me off to see the name Jardine Matheson everywhere. Can't believe these drug dealers are still honored in HK.

shen said:

unfortunately when PRC made the deal of one country two systems, leaving the colonial economy model alone, at least for now, was part of the deal. when I get off the plane in HK, it always piss me off to see the name Jardine Matheson everywhere. Can't believe these drug dealers are still honored in HK.

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That's part of the set up. Deng already might have imagined this.
I even saw an alinea in an Asia Time on line article today that claimed that Hong Kong had been a democratic example for China for 150 years.
The contrast between a blooming China and a dubious Hong Kong during the next thirty years ....

shen said:

unfortunately when PRC made the deal of one country two systems, leaving the colonial economy model alone, at least for now, was part of the deal. when I get off the plane in HK, it always piss me off to see the name Jardine Matheson everywhere. Can't believe these drug dealers are still honored in HK.

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One civilization, many systems is how China had been run since the First Emperor, Qin Chi Huang, united the country, and instituted the Han writing system from among many different writing systems. It's not unusual for China to have multiple systems that fit local customs and conditions, as long as the people at large consider themselves "Chinese" even if the local population isn't predominately Han.

delft said:

The financial economy, in short hand called Wall Street, is also rigged for those with power and detrimental for the 99%. Mr Xi probably likes to show to the mainlanders how much better a regulated economy is, especially one improved by his anti-corruption campaign, than the capitalist economy of Hong Kong.

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Detrimental for the 99%? Really, Delft?

Tell that to the tens upon tens of millions who are reaping their retirement from their investments in Wall Street.

Sure they are are people in Wall Street who make obsene profits (and as long as they do so legally, there is nothing wrong with it. Those people usually create a lot of jobs too, not to mention wealth for others). Sure there is some corruption and law breaking going on. As long as humans are involved, with all of our imperfections and susceptability to temptations, there will be. The answer is to addres those failings...not ditch the whole thing. Sheez!

That is because THAT corrupt and illegal activity is the vast minority of activity in a system involving hundreds of millions of people all over the world. Now, the the left and socialists the world-over like to point to the small percentages of failings and tout it as a reson to somehow revamp the whole thing . It is such extremes and far left ideologs who drive things like the Occupy Movement and other initiatives where they play off the idealism of some kind of utopia to try and implement their long held hope for complete "income redistribution."

The problem is, when such individuals actually get the power to start redistribution, that effort turns into corrpution and illegality that dwarves what exists in the free market by orders of magnitude. History is replete with the failure of such efforts...over and over and over again.

No, tens and tens of millions of American (and elsewhere) invest in Wall Street and end up reaping a rich reward from the free maket. Their portfolios are generally diversified across many segements of the economy and have, despite occassional downturns and bubbles bursting, proven to be the best economic engine in the world, helping the absolute most people, despite whatever failings.

Jeff Head said:

The problem is, when such individuals actually get the power to start redistributin, that effort turns into corrpution that dwarves what exists in the free market by orders of magnitude. History is replete with the failure of such efforts...over and over and over again.

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The failed state of California is just such an example.

Hello... Looks like to me the numbers of the Occupy Central demonstrators in HK have dwindled to a few hundred ..if that. And some of the discussion in this thread is way off topic. Really. That being stated if the demonstrations in HK do not increase/resume soon I will close this thread. It will remain a "sticky" so it can be easily found & re-opened if necessary if more demonstrations by Occupy Central erupt..

Don't underestimate my power.

bd popeye super moderator

This picture is from last week.
Will all the roads and streets blocked. And ambulances being stopped and searched by mobs. EMT's had to go to and from emergencies by subway Imagine if that was a family member that had a life threathen situation!?

From RT.com and according to Reuters:

Authorities refuse concessions to Hong Kong protesters

Authorities in Hong Kong have conducted negotiations with protesters, and sent them a clear message that there will be no quick concessions. Chinese authorities confirmed they are going to screen candidates for the 2017 elections for the province’s leader. Hong Kong’s current chief executive, Leung Chun-ying, who was appointed by the province’s Legislative Council, earlier this week turned down protesters’ demand to resign. After over a week of mass rallies, the numbers of protesters has fallen to several hundred. They remain camped along the main road leading to Hong Kong's government headquarters and business districts, causing traffic jams on Hong Kong Island and across Victoria Harbour. Despite the dramatically decreasing number of supporters, the leaders of the protesters maintain they are ready to go on with the Occupy demonstrations until their demands are met, Reuters reports.

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an excellent opinion piece deconstructing everything wrong with the OC movement and why they are provoking people's ire.


Why this American Expat is 100% against the Protests in Hong Kong
OCT 1
Posted by Cyrus Janssen
Hong-Kong-Protest

There is a revolution happening in Hong Kong right now that has drawn the entire world’s attention to this tiny island in Asia. While many people have made their voices known on social media in support of this movement, my heart is greatly saddened by the efforts of the Hong Kong people. In my opinion the protests are absurd and a travesty to the city.

Many people applaud the Hong Kong locals saying their protests are peaceful, orderly, and a model example for how protests should be carried out. That’s a great compliment to the people of Hong Kong but in my opinion they shouldn’t even be protesting in the first place. The purpose of this article is to give people a broader viewpoint, and challenge them to think outside the box.


The issue at hand is Hong Kong people want the chance to vote for their own leader. The Beijing Communist government ruled last month that people can elect their next leader in 2017, however a pro-Beijing committee must approve the candidates. Hong Kongers fear that this will allow China to screen candidates and as a result they have not accepted this decision.

China's Parliament Building in Beijing
China’s Parliament Building in Beijing

Having lived in Mainland China for 7 years, I bring a different perspective to this argument. I have traveled to Hong Kong numerous times over those 7 years and always had nothing but respect and admiration for Hong Kong. Beijing lent Hong Kong to the British for 100 years (1897-1997) and the city transformed itself into the financial and shipping hub of Asia. During the handover in 1997, everyone feared communist China would regain control and change everything, instead Beijing admired what the British accomplished and kept Hong Kong the same.

In the 17 years following the handover, the Beijing government has done nothing but help Hong Kong grow and having protests like this will only jeopardize Hong Kong’s relationship with China. A relationship that Hong Kong desperately needs. I’m currently writing this post from Scotland and can’t help but draw some comparisons to the recent vote of independence in this country. While many Scots wanted to leave the United Kingdom, the majority of them realized they were stronger together than they were by themselves and voted accordingly. This is exactly the same for Hong Kong, this SAR (Special Administrative Region) is much stronger with support from China.

Crossing the border between Hong Kong and Mainland China
Crossing the border between Hong Kong and Mainland China

My biggest issue with these protests are Hong Kong citizens have never considered how fortunate they are right now. They should be thankful for the tremendous amount of freedom they already have and realize that 1.4 billion Chinese people would give anything to be in their shoes. Here are some examples of what I mean:

1. When Hong Kong’s budget has a surplus (as in 2011) Hong Kong citizens and PR’s (Permanent Residents) receive a complimentary bonus from the government the last one was $HKD 6,000 ($USD 775). Not many countries in the world can run their budget at a surplus and certainly not many would redistribute the surplus back to it’s citizens.

2. The Hong Kong passport gives its citizens visa-free access to 152 countries around the world. Chinese citizens on the other hand can only visit 43 countries without a visa. This puts the Chinese passport on the same level as countries like Congo and Rwanda.

3. Hong Kong citizens enjoy one of the lowest personal income taxes in the world, with the maximum rate fixed at only 15%, China’s maximum (along with many Western countries) is at 45%.

4. The Index of Economic Freedom has ranked Hong Kong the World’s Freest Economy for 20 consecutive years (1995-2014). China currently ranks #137 in the world.

5. Hong Kong has the world’s most developed transportation system in the world. Over 90% of daily travels are on public transport, the highest such percentage in the world. China’s public transport is extensive in major cities but still lacking in rural areas.

6. Hong Kong legal system is completely independent from the legal system of Mainland China. Hong Kong continues to follow the English common law tradition that was established under British rule.

7. Internet censorship in Hong Kong operates under complete different principles and regulations from those of Mainland China. Currently Mainland China forbids Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and many other social media websites.

8. Hong Kong is a tax haven for imports. Everything from Bordeaux wine, Nike shoes, and Apple iPhones are imported into Hong Kong without any duty taxes, thereby making Hong Kong the cheapest place in the world to purchase many Western products. China’s duty taxes are notoriously high (between 50-100%) making it one of the world’s most expensive places to purchase a Western product.

These are just a few of the many benefits citizens of Hong Kong receive. I read this list and find it hard to believe why people would want to protest a government that has provided such amazing benefits. In addition I haven’t even began to describe the social benefits like medical coverage, social security, and disability benefits for Hong Kong citizens that are much better than their neighbors in Mainland China.

Protests with a sign reading "We are Hong Konge, not Chinese"
Protestors with a sign reading “We are Hong Kong People, not Chinese”

My second issue with these protests is the Hong Kong citizens extreme and often raciest views towards Mainland Chinese. There is an opinion floating around Hong Kong that the island would be better without Mainland Chinese. Hong Kong people like to identify themselves as “Hong Kongers” and despise people labeling them as “Chinese”. In actuality all Hong Kong people came from the Mainland, this is a proven fact as every Hong Kong citizen can trace their roots back to the Mainland.

In
In this photo Hong Kong people are verbally attacking Mainland Chinese tourists who wait outside a shopping mall

It is this hatred for Mainland Chinese that have caused Hong Kong citizens to protest against the government in Beijing. It is very naive in my opinion. Don’t Hong Kong citizens realize that Mainland Chinese tourists are the key to their booming economy? Long lines of tourists outside shopping malls are creating jobs, filling hotels rooms, airplane seats, and restaurant chairs as everyone wants to come to and experience this former British colony. As we approach the Chinese October holidays tourism companies are expecting a 30-50% decrease in Mainland Chinese tourism during the holiday. Hong Kong people will feel that they have won a small battle, until they see the effects of slower economy, rising prices, and loss of jobs as a major decrease in tourism will send Hong Kong’s economy into a recession. Over the last 5 years Singapore has emerged as the next hub for Asia’s finance, shipping, and entrepreneurial companies. As long as these protests continue Hong Kong’s economy will deteriorate and Singapore will take even more business away from Hong Kong.

My final issue with the protests is that democratic elections are not always the answer to everyone’s problems, ask any American voter in the 2000 United States Presidential Election. Fourteen years ago American voters participated in one of the closest presidential elections in American history. Democratic candidate Al Gore received 48.4% of the popular vote compared to George Bush’s 47.9%. George Bush lost the popular vote and still became the President of America! This is possible because George Bush won more votes from the Electoral College, which is the institution that actually elects the president in America, not the American voters themselves. Many Americans felt betrayed by the government. They shouldn’t have though this was actually the 4th time in American history a president failed to win the popular vote but went on to become president.

My point in bringing up America’s political system is to show everyone that even America, the world’s most famous democracy, you can have a public vote that still has government intervention, there is no such thing as 100% freedom.

I look around the world and see the unrest between Israel and Palestine, British and Americans hostages being executed by terrorist groups in Syria, the harsh conflict between Russia and Ukraine and feel I am so blessed to live in Hong Kong as an expat and have a tremendous amount of freedom.

I challenge all Hong Kong citizens to think about the opportunities you’ve had compared to your brothers in Mainland China. Protesting against Beijing is not the answer, embrace your Chinese roots, cherish your British influence, and most importantly:

The protesters have dwindled. This could be further used by authorities to determine who are the hardcore leaders or people with personal stakes/being paid for the occupy movement from the rest of the mob, as anyone left behind now are not people who are in simply for the commotion or excitement of not having to go to school.

I recommend at the end of the movement that police escort and establish files on them for 'self protection' reasons.