Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

Status
Not open for further replies.
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
PikeCowboy said:
Not sure about date or accuracy because memory is listed as "limited" but I already bought some unilc ddr4 2400... so I mean they're not 3666, so is that what they mean by success?
Click to expand...
Yeah, these Western reports are pretty worthless. Having noted that, we must understand the difficulty of what China is doing: it's trying to build a completely indigenous semiconductor supply chain from A to Z, from refining the silicon to making wafers to chip design to fabrication and packaging. No country, including the US, has that. If it were any other country attempting it I would dismiss it as lunacy, the only reason it's even possible in China's case is its sheer scale and the masses of humanity it graduates with STEM degrees every year.
 
C

Canuck place

New Member
Registered Member
Skywatcher said:
You mean the 125W, DPP Changchun Institute EUV, machine that's aimed for 2022?

It probably has the same performance as the NXE3350B for resolution. It's issue is in output (the NXE3400C is capable of 175 wafers per hour), the Changchun machine can only do about 60-70 wph.
Click to expand...

Can someone provide the link regarding the chaungchun euv coming in 2022? I’ve heard it mentioned but never saw the actual file link.


tidalwave said:
I wrote an email to Huawei

I suggest them to go out and buy as much second hand equipment as possible and set up a fab named as Huawei semiconductor fab.

This is done parallel while SMIC is manufacturing for huawei, huawei needs to setup its own fab.

Then licensing SMIC 14nm process and hire SMIC as consultant to run the fab. Also hire a bunch of new engineers and have SMIC trained on them.
As soon as SMIC N+1 ready, it will licensed as well.
This is not pretty but needed to be done

I think this is a must so that Huawei wont be implicate other Chinese companie in the long run
This level.of separation is needed. You dont want to drag other Chinese companies into this mess if you can.

At the end of day, the chips must have marking of huawei manufactured.

Its better for huawei this way in the future as it master the semiconductor process and manufacturing tech like a samsung and intel.

Huawei is the most aggressive mindseted chinese company and i want to see to put that in good use. I want them to aggressively driving China EUV industry. Chinese government cant do it and maybe huawei leadership can.
Click to expand...

Maybe you can write to Changchun and SMIC about using the synchrotrons as well just to see if they considered it as an option?
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
ZeEa5KPul said:
How do are the various parameters of EUV machines related? For instance, how does the wattage of the source relate to resolution and throughput? All of these machines generate UV light from the same source (tin droplets), so how come some have better resolution than others? How fine a resolution can the Changchun machine reach initially and then as the user pushes it?
Click to expand...
Higher power allows for faster processing/throughput.

As for resolution, I don't think we have any specs on the 2022 Changchun Institute machine yet. However, Changchun did built a 22-32nm resolution EUV machine in 2017, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they can improve the numeric aperture in a 5 year timespan.

If SMEE can produce world class DUV lithographic machine by the end of this year, Changchun Institute's partners can probably improve the NA.
 
A

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
localizer said:
Sell the $1 trillion in US treasuries and put it all into semiconductor development.

Use the $3 trillion in dollar reserves and put it in jet engine development.


I'm serious lol.
Click to expand...


Don't forget the rare earth ban...
Put a quota/cap on not just PPE but all medical supplies including medicines towards "unreliable" or openly hostile nations...
Put QualComm, Apple, FedEx (package thief), etc etc on that list and ban all 5nm inside China per Tidalwave advice and recommendation
Most importantly tell Saudi they must accept digital Yuan or drop them completely.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Canuck place said:
Can someone provide the link regarding the chaungchun euv coming in 2022? I’ve heard it mentioned but never saw the actual file link.




Maybe you can write to Changchun and SMIC about using the synchrotrons as well just to see if they considered it as an option?
Click to expand...

Here's Pkp88's post. The SMEE DUV machine seems to be corroborated.
Pkp88 said:
There have been some online posts about SMEE capabilities. Below I have posted the translated text and links to actual site. I would be curious what people think of this information.

View attachment 59650

View attachment 59651

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Skywatcher said:
Higher power allows for faster processing/throughput.

As for resolution, I don't think we have any specs on the 2022 Changchun Institute machine yet. However, Changchun did built a 22-32nm resolution EUV machine in 2017, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they can improve the numeric aperture in a 5 year timespan.

If SMEE can produce world class DUV lithographic machine by the end of this year, Changchun Institute's partners can probably improve the NA.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I meant to type illumination options in the place of numeric apertures.
 
localizer

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
If you want to advance through state of the art tech fast, it takes trial and error.

In this case, build an EUV (like the Changchun one), use it, find faults, improve on it continuously.

If there's any nation good at this, it is China.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Looks like higher power is also needed for smaller features when we're dealing with EUV.

One last thing. Why are those lines curved? Why does the throughput drop as you drop feature size? It’s because EUV is very high energy. To get the same dose at 13.5 nm as you did at 193 nm you use an order of magnitude less photons. That means that the natural variation in photons so called photon shot noise is far more important across a constant dose/area. So, we do some math and find out that at a 10 mJ/cm^2 dose for 193i we get 97 photons per nanometer squared, which means shot noise contributes +/- 10%. At the same dose, with EUV, shot noise is now +/- 40%! To bring it back down we have to increase the dose. And as we shrink features the necessary dose just rises and rises.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...

That could place the 125 watt 2022 Changchun machine closer to the NXE3400B (140 watts in 2017) instead of the NXE3350B (80 watts in 2015) when talking about resolution performance.

Though since Changchun uses DPP instead of LPP, that could result in slower production (or the 60-70 wafer per hour output is due to the 2022 machine being the first of its kind so increasing output wasn't the paramount design consideration).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top