Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Then it's a paperweight, China already has DUVs that reach that level.

Edit: that might have been a little too harsh. It's disappointing but it's not the end of the world. I'm sure they can get the line width down to where it needs to be in the next iteration, but they really have to step on the gas here.

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The 2017 EUV machine is purely a tech demonstrator.

Skywatcher said:

The 2017 EUV machine is purely a tech demonstrator.

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Meaning?

ZeEa5KPul said:

They can't abandon their greed for even a single moment. Good, so what if Huawei has to release some Qualcomm chipped phones for a few years? HiSilicon can be a private research institution for a few years and take the opportunity to develop new tools and get its house in order. We're losing focus again in talking about retaliation and "why I oughta!" The EUV machine, that's all that matters. How long before the 32nm line width on the verification machine can be lowered to 13nm (the current state of the art)? Looking at ASML's development path, China would generously be where ASML was with a commercial 27nm EUV machine in 2010. It took them 7 years to develop the 13nm device in 2017; China must do it faster than that.

The fact that the licensee can then sell HiSilicon's chip to whomever it pleases.

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ASML developed a 16nm machine in 2015 (it's definitely good enough for 7nm, since Intel bought a bunch of those NXE3350B, it'd probably be less efficient to do 5nm with those machines).

Honestly, that depends on how willing Huawei is to see HiSilicon chips go whereever.

ZeEa5KPul said:

Meaning?

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It's like the ASML NXE3100. While its theoretically capable of production, its more used as a tool to verify the EUV lithography/customers start getting a handle on operating EUV lithography.

Skywatcher said:

It's like the ASML NXE3100. While its theoretically capable of production, its more used as a tool to verify the EUV lithography/customers start getting a handle on operating EUV lithography.

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So will SMEE's first generation of production machines be more capable, as capable, or less capable?

ZeEa5KPul said:

So will SMEE's first generation of production machines be more capable, as capable, or less capable?

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You mean the 125W, DPP Changchun Institute EUV, machine that's aimed for 2022?

It probably has the same performance as the NXE3350B for resolution. It's issue is in output (the NXE3400C is capable of 175 wafers per hour), the Changchun machine can only do about 60-70 wph.

the data for all

I wrote an email to Huawei

I suggest them to go out and buy as much second hand equipment as possible and set up a fab named as Huawei semiconductor fab.

This is done parallel while SMIC is manufacturing for huawei, huawei needs to setup its own fab.

Then licensing SMIC 14nm process and hire SMIC as consultant to run the fab. Also hire a bunch of new engineers and have SMIC trained on them.
As soon as SMIC N+1 ready, it will licensed as well.
This is not pretty but needed to be done

I think this is a must so that Huawei wont be implicate other Chinese companie in the long run
This level.of separation is needed. You dont want to drag other Chinese companies into this mess if you can.

At the end of day, the chips must have marking of huawei manufactured.

Its better for huawei this way in the future as it master the semiconductor process and manufacturing tech like a samsung and intel.

Huawei is the most aggressive mindseted chinese company and i want to see to put that in good use. I want them to aggressively driving China EUV industry. Chinese government cant do it and maybe huawei leadership can.

Skywatcher said:

You mean the 125W, DPP Changchun Institute EUV, machine that's aimed for 2022?

It probably has the same performance as the NXE3350B for resolution. It's issue is in output (the NXE3400C is capable of 175 wafers per hour), the Changchun machine can only do about 60-70 wph.

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EDIT: The NXE3350B uses a 80W EUV source. The NXE3400B uses a 140W (for the ones shipped in 2017, anyways).

Skywatcher said:

EDIT: The NXE3350B uses a 80W EUV source. The NXE3400B uses a 140W (for the ones shipped in 2017, anyways).

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How do are the various parameters of EUV machines related? For instance, how does the wattage of the source relate to resolution and throughput? All of these machines generate UV light from the same source (tin droplets), so how come some have better resolution than others? How fine a resolution can the Changchun machine reach initially and then as the user pushes it?