Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

ZeEa5KPul · May 18, 2020

localizer said:
The 0.75nm RMS is important in regards to development of the optical surfaces.

13.5nm is due to the materials being used (tin droplet), the "linewidth":

View attachment 60004

Line width is effectively resolution I think.

If you look at how people define their gates, the 14nm and whatever don't mean much. You need full details how the node.

From wikichip:

View attachment 60005

Where's the original text?

@Pkp88

So, in English, is this EUV prototype any good or is it a lemon? How competitive is it against the state of the art?

Pkp88 said:
I would like to direct attention to the below article I found (Jan 2020) from the Chinese Academy of Sciences in relation to work on Lithography.

Only the second paragraph has anything remotely interesting, the rest is just blather about their New Year's party. I don't understand the numbers in the second paragraph either, especially the 110nm - are they still wasting time on a 110nm machine?

localizer · May 18, 2020

ZeEa5KPul said:
So, in English, is this EUV prototype any good or is it a lemon? How competitive is it against the state of the art?

We shall see. If you look at the pitch dimensions of other processes:

I would say you need 1/2 of the smallest pitch or ~18nm-22nm theoretical line width to produce 7nm on par with comeptitors.

That EUV domestic machine can probably do "14nm" generation chips.

ZeEa5KPul · May 18, 2020

localizer said:
That EUV domestic machine can probably do "14nm" generation chips.

Then it's a paperweight, China already has DUVs that reach that level.

Edit: that might have been a little too harsh. It's disappointing but it's not the end of the world. I'm sure they can get the line width down to where it needs to be in the next iteration, but they really have to step on the gas here.

Canuck place · May 18, 2020

ZeEa5KPul said:
China's EUV machine is the only thing in this whole business worth talking about, everything else is a distraction. First, this is a first-generation machine built around an inferior light source - how small is it able to go? From my dive into this topic I got the impression that 300W is necessary for a commercially viable EUV machine. What's the state of research on other EUV approaches (specifically LPP)?

Yes and if it does take another 2 years for China to get a EUV machine, that’s like a life time in semiconductor industry I feel. Perhaps they should think about using the synchrotron suggested by @tidalwave , just to get some euv up and running. I feel they should have prepared and expected for this move by the US. A task forced coordinating all possible players should have been made. Writing was on the wall for some time. If they did not anticipate this then it would be quite disappointing.

Pkp88 · May 18, 2020

Canuck place said:
Yes and if it does take another 2 years for China to get a EUV machine, that’s like a life time in semiconductor industry I feel. Perhaps they should think about using the synchrotron suggested by @tidalwave , just to get some euv up and running. I feel they should have prepared and expected for this move by the US. A task forced coordinating all possible players should have been made. Writing was on the wall for some time. If they did not anticipate this then it would be quite disappointing.

It’s a question of priorities. The 5G base stations are more important than consumer product chips. The base stations don’t need EUV and I think 14nm works just fine

Canuck place · May 18, 2020

Pkp88 said:
It’s a question of priorities. The 5G base stations are more important than consumer product chips. The base stations don’t need EUV and I think 14nm works just fine

Is that really the case? If so that’s good news. That’s their core business.

Navigator · May 18, 2020

IMHO from the Chinese authorities need decisive retaliatory measures against the United States ..

"TSMC has stopped taking new orders from Huawei after the new rule change was announced to fully comply with the latest export control regulation," a person familiar with the situation said. "But those already in production and those orders which TSMC took before the new ban are not impacted and could continue to proceed if those chips could be shipped before mid-September."

The U.S. Commerce Department

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on Friday that all non-U. S. chip manufacturers using American chipmaking equipment, intellectual property or design software will have to apply for a license before shipping chips to Huawei.

"It's a difficult decision for TSMC as Huawei is the company's No. 2 customer, but the chipmaker has to follow the U.S. rules," another person familiar with the matter said.

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Canuck place · May 18, 2020

Navigator said:
IMHO from the Chinese authorities need decisive retaliatory measures against the United States ..

"TSMC has stopped taking new orders from Huawei after the new rule change was announced to fully comply with the latest export control regulation," a person familiar with the situation said. "But those already in production and those orders which TSMC took before the new ban are not impacted and could continue to proceed if those chips could be shipped before mid-September."

The U.S. Commerce Department
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on Friday that all non-U. S. chip manufacturers using American chipmaking equipment, intellectual property or design software will have to apply for a license before shipping chips to Huawei.

"It's a difficult decision for TSMC as Huawei is the company's No. 2 customer, but the chipmaker has to follow the U.S. rules," another person familiar with the matter said.

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Yes definitely need retaliation but need to be strategic. Companies like apply employ a lot of ppl in China. And China has less tools for retaliation without self harm compared to the US. I say limit rare earths first to the US. And limit rare earth processing for the US. Having access to rare earth in China should give China an advantage in future IC development as it is cheaper to have access to rare earths.

Mt1701d · May 18, 2020

Canuck place said:
Yes definitely need retaliation but need to be strategic. Companies like apply employ a lot of ppl in China. And China has less tools for retaliation without self harm compared to the US. I say limit rare earths first to the US. And limit rare earth processing for the US. Having access to rare earth in China should give China an advantage in future IC development as it is cheaper to have access to rare earths.

If the consideration for retaliation relates to rare Earth then perhaps China can take a page from Trumps play book, an export tariff, with a reasoning of environmental tax. Domestic consumption (Local production) can be exempted since it will generate jobs and downstream taxes to combat environmental problems related to mining, but direct export does little for China and China have to bear the cost. So any raw materials, ore or refined metals would be subject to this tariff.

Can use the human rights and environmental angle if other countries complain. Not sure if this would work but I think has angle to sell lol

muddie · May 18, 2020

Mt1701d said:
If the consideration for retaliation relates to rare Earth then perhaps China can take a page from Trumps play book, an export tariff, with a reasoning of environmental tax. Domestic consumption (Local production) can be exempted since it will generate jobs and downstream taxes to combat environmental problems related to mining, but direct export does little for China and China have to bear the cost. So any raw materials, ore or refined metals would be subject to this tariff.

Can use the human rights and environmental angle if other countries complain. Not sure if this would work but I think has angle to sell lol

China will retaliate for sure but it would be interesting to see if they announce it in the coming weeks or if China chooses to wait a few months to weigh in potential outcomes of the election before making a decision then.

Why would China not just cancel the first phase of the trade deal? It saves the rare earth metals card for a future date. Canceling the first phase of the trade deal would be a direct blow to Trump's re-election marketing efforts. U.S. can raise tariffs back to pre-deal levels but it would hurt them a lot more now given the COVID backdrop.

Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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