F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[jackliu]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

First, I am not an F-35 lover, BUT pray tell which are those bad aerodynamic features? Hopefully your answer is better than the rest of your post, but I would state for the record that the F-35 is a known quantity, with all the concerns, it is still very likely a more potent weapons system than anything save the F-22, and its avionics and weapons systems outclass even the Raptor. As for the financial end of your post and Scam accusations, that is pure nonsense, IMHO?

Well, I always have this impression that F-35 is a small stubby little plane with very few wing area, which means lower speed, lower maneuverability, and lower internal payload. This is the problem with all stealth jet fighters that are still F-16 size, there is just not enough room for internal payloads, but if you carry payloads on the wings, that kinda make the whole "stealth" moot in the first place, might as well as use the more cost effective F-16.

As for avionic, just because it is more advanced than F-22 does not mean it is better, because in theory, you can retro fit Mig-21 to have similar technology, but it still won't overcome the limitation of air frame. They should have produced a lot more F-22 and keep upgrading it, great air frame + cutting edge electronics = pure win.

 

[Air Force Brat]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Well, I always have this impression that F-35 is a small stubby little plane with very few wing area, which means lower speed, lower maneuverability, and lower internal payload. This is the problem with all stealth jet fighters that are still F-16 size, there is just not enough room for internal payloads, but if you carry payloads on the wings, that kinda make the whole "stealth" moot in the first place, might as well as use the more cost effective F-16.

As for avionic, just because it is more advanced than F-22 does not mean it is better, because in theory, you can retro fit Mig-21 to have similar technology, but it still won't overcome the limitation of air frame. They should have produced a lot more F-22 and keep upgrading it, great air frame + cutting edge electronics = pure win.

Well the F-35A has actually pulled 9.9 gs, although its design limit is 9, so when you figure the f-18 is limited to 7gs, thats a lot of turn and burn on tap, it is slowish although it has lots of power, it is also heavy but after the initial first in scenario, it will carry around 18,000lbs on the pylons, and it is basically a Strike aircraft, but it is certainly faster and stealthier than the A-10, so it is actually a much more capable aircraft than appearances would lead you to believe, much like the P-47 Thunderbolt of WW II.

The F-35 has the most advanced avionics and weapons management system on the planet and has an integrated system whereby multiple aircraft are tied into a system that will provide awesome situational awareness, being tied in to AWACs and even other aircraft in the strike package. It will be leathal to both ground and air targets, now to your real point, sadly no, it is not the Raptor, it will lack the kinemetic advantage of the Raptor if you do get involved in a "dust up" with the bad guys, but the helmet mounted sight will give you an advantage in targeting your opponent.

The F-35A is rated to 9gs, the F-35B to 7gs, and the F-35C to 7.5gs, incidently the C does have more wing area and I believe fuel, so that may be your bird. Now to your last point, here we are absolutely soul bros, I wasn't initially a Raptor devotee, it is rather angular, compared to the velouptous Flankers, which have the curves in all the right places, but after watching and listening to the Raptor shredding the air, and then watching it fly down the runway in a very high alpha pass at a stated 85kts, lovingly clinging to lift as he flew past, reaching the end of that pass and throttleing up and climbing away effortlessly, watching him then pull to the vertical at airshow center and climb straight up then throttleing back and watching the Raptor flipping and twitching to hold that vertical attitude as it performed a flawless tailslide. Well you get the picture, as I have said it is the alien fighter, flat out of this world, and to be honest I would love 700 of them, but 185 will likely do the job,==no problemo! Have a good day Jack, AFB

 

[Pointblank]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The paper was writing about this report. What do you think: will we buy the aircraft and abolish the army or the navy? We wouldn't be able to keep both.

The Dutch have AN-1 and is about to receive AN-2, and both birds will need to be re-wired as it has test wiring (aka orange wiring), severely limiting resale as both birds will need rewiring prior to sale, if they can be sold in the first place. Also, the US DOD has very restrictive terms for reselling military equipment to third parties, ESPECIALLY with aircraft with test wiring.

The Dutch will take a major loss in trying to sell both aircraft to someone else, and will suffer industrially, as the Dutch was slated to get major industrial work, and to withdraw now will result in significant termination fees that the Dutch government will have to pay (estimated to be equal to the value of initial Dutch investment in JSF).

 

[paintgun]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Personally i don't have a high regard for the F-35 and i don't have a high regard for the J-31 (F-60). They both share the same aerodynamic features that makes them balky and slow. With the F-35 we know that its stealth features are vulnerable for L and other lower band radars. Quite frankly i think both these planes should be cancelled and that China and America should focus their resources elsewhere like the J-20 or a improved F-22 but thats just my opinion.

As for the F-35 and Europe is concerned there is not only one scam going on there but there are two scams happening.

The first scam is of course the plane it self that doesn't perform as advertised and very few professionals in the aviation industry who's livelihood doesn't depend on this plane are highly critical of its performance.

The second scam is the business side of things. The way that the F-35 has been sold to America's JSF partners is that the F-35 will be a affordable plane that is beyond the capabilities of any potential rivals. And that if they invest and buy that plane that there will be jobs and technology transfers and a share in the future profits from the sales.

We know with the Sukhoi T-50 and the Chengdu J-20 that Russia and China are working on planes that is superior to the F-35 and share the aerodynamic features closer to the F-22 than the F-35. As for affordability the plane cost 195 million dollar a pop and thats just for the basic A version the carrier capable B and C versions will cost you between 200 to 240 million dollars a piece. The little work they get from Lockheed Martin in the production of the F-35 doesn't justify the investments they made and especially when they have to buy these planes at nearly 200 million dollars a piece. The technology transfers from Americans to Europeans are not forthcoming and is far less then was promised or presented. As for the profits with everyone scaling back on their orders for the F-35 including the US military you have to question just how much profits there is going to be and how much of that profit will be shared with the junior partners.

it's a business scam, for the lack of word for it, or preferably say monopoly by Lockheed

the F-35 deserves some appreciation, technologically i think it's fine bird, just too many politically/lobby arm twisting involved
if you get rid of the B, or detach it's development from the project, it will be good.

we need to remember with the J-20 and F-22, USAF and PLAAF can't expect to field hundreds of them, there is a need for a cheaper fighter to do the multi role aspect, where the F-35 fails in affordability, the same cannot be said yet of the J-31, yet, or possibly wouldn't be.

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The Dutch have AN-1 and is about to receive AN-2, and both birds will need to be re-wired as it has test wiring (aka orange wiring), severely limiting resale as both birds will need rewiring prior to sale, if they can be sold in the first place. Also, the US DOD has very restrictive terms for reselling military equipment to third parties, ESPECIALLY with aircraft with test wiring.

The Dutch will take a major loss in trying to sell both aircraft to someone else, and will suffer industrially, as the Dutch was slated to get major industrial work, and to withdraw now will result in significant termination fees that the Dutch government will have to pay (estimated to be equal to the value of initial Dutch investment in JSF).

Sure we'll take a loss. We can only give them back to the US. But buying 56 of those planes would mean an even larger loss. We can't pay without sacrificing other more important things. And remember we belong to the richer European countries. ( I don't know what the new Dutch government will do. They look an irresponsible lot. Also there happen to be several corruption cases with politicians from the largest party ).

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I have said it is the alien fighter, flat out of this world, and to be honest I would love 700 of them, but 185 will likely do the job,==no problemo! Have a good day Jack, AFB

If Romney is elected, and if he gets the economy going strong...which I expect he will, but which is the big IF in all of this...then you will see more F-22s. He has stated he would re-open the line. Maybe not the 700 you can I would like...but perhaps as many as 400 and that would be great.

In addition, that big "IF" is the big if for his naval growth plans. For a new Frigate, more Zunwalts, the 11th carrier wing, and other things he has planned on the military front.

So, let's hope he has the opportunity and that once again, as with JFK and with Reagan (and even though some will not admit it), also with Bush untitl the downturn in 2008 from the housing bubble) alsowith Bush, that the supply side engine is put in place and we see the growth that the US economy needs and is capable of.

 

[jackliu]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

If Romney is elected, and if he gets the economy going strong...which I expect he will, but which is the big IF in all of this...then you will see more F-22s. He has stated he would re-open the line. Maybe not the 700 you can I would like...but perhaps as many as 400 and that would be great.

In addition, that big "IF" is the big if for his naval growth plans. For a new Frigate, more Zunwalts, the 11th carrier wing, and other things he has planned on the military front.

So, let's hope he has the opportunity and that once again, as with JFK and with Reagan (and even though some will not admit it), also with Bush untitl the downturn in 2008 from the housing bubble) alsowith Bush, that the supply side engine is put in place and we see the growth that the US economy needs and is capable of.

I'm going to bet my life on it, he will not reopen the line. Too much interest going against it, and F-35 is way more profitable for Lockie than F-22 will ever be.

 

[Pointblank]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Sure we'll take a loss. We can only give them back to the US. But buying 56 of those planes would mean an even larger loss. We can't pay without sacrificing other more important things. And remember we belong to the richer European countries. ( I don't know what the new Dutch government will do. They look an irresponsible lot. Also there happen to be several corruption cases with politicians from the largest party ).

You will still need to pay to buy new fighter jets, and the alternatives are just as expensive as F-35, with very little in terms of industrial offsets. With F-35, continued Dutch investment, and future sales to non-JSF partner nations (such as Israel and Japan), will result in a royalty check to the government for every unit sold.

If Romney is elected, and if he gets the economy going strong...which I expect he will, but which is the big IF in all of this...then you will see more F-22s. He has stated he would re-open the line. Maybe not the 700 you can I would like...but perhaps as many as 400 and that would be great.

In addition, that big "IF" is the big if for his naval growth plans. For a new Frigate, more Zunwalts, the 11th carrier wing, and other things he has planned on the military front.

So, let's hope he has the opportunity and that once again, as with JFK and with Reagan (and even though some will not admit it), also with Bush untitl the downturn in 2008 from the housing bubble) alsowith Bush, that the supply side engine is put in place and we see the growth that the US economy needs and is capable of.

Doubt it. The F-22 line is shut down and the tooling boxed away for storage. Not to mention it would prohibitively expensive to restart the supply chain for many long term lead items, such as engines and avionics.

The reality of the F-22's production was that the USAF could not produce more using the current configuration. Basically the Raptors utilize an avionics architecture based on the i960MX processor that was never upgraded in the expectation that they would be replaced after 2010. So in 2003 they bought up all the remaining MX chips from Intel (before they closed their line) and used that stock to complete the current production flight of aircraft. The new avionics suite was to be based on the F-35's architecture, but that too was cut somewhere between 2004 and 2006. So in order to produce more F-22s the USAF would be on the hook to pay for a major avionics upgrade program. To get from increment 3.1 to 3.2 (which is just updating the software for the current architecture) the USAF is looking at $8 billion dollars in development. Introducing a full fledged new avionics suite would be far more than that.

Finally I get the sense that the USAF brass would rather go with F-35s than F-22s. Raptors are horrendously expensive to operate and maintain. Starting up the production line would be extremely expensive as well; you could be looking at costs where you could buy 2.5 to 3 F-35s for each F-22.

 

[delft]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

You will still need to pay to buy new fighter jets, and the alternatives are just as expensive as F-35, with very little in terms of industrial offsets. With F-35, continued Dutch investment, and future sales to non-JSF partner nations (such as Israel and Japan), will result in a royalty check to the government for every unit sold.

It seems the company that is to profit most from these offsets might not survive long enough. It would have been fine if large scale production had started by now or even if there were certainty that it would start real soon. So with a reducing order book for the aircraft and the main Dutch benificiary about to go bankrupt the best solution for the Netherlands would be to buy something off the shelf in the mid-twenties. Perhaps Brazil would have something. Fokker started an aircraft factory in that country in the '50's, building S-11 trainers. Something to get back after the Fokker company failed some fifteen years ago. That failing producer of parts for F-35 was then cut out of Fokker.

 

[Air Force Brat]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

If Romney is elected, and if he gets the economy going strong...which I expect he will, but which is the big IF in all of this...then you will see more F-22s. He has stated he would re-open the line. Maybe not the 700 you can I would like...but perhaps as many as 400 and that would be great.

In addition, that big "IF" is the big if for his naval growth plans. For a new Frigate, more Zunwalts, the 11th carrier wing, and other things he has planned on the military front.

So, let's hope he has the opportunity and that once again, as with JFK and with Reagan (and even though some will not admit it), also with Bush untitl the downturn in 2008 from the housing bubble) alsowith Bush, that the supply side engine is put in place and we see the growth that the US economy needs and is capable of.

Yes, that would keep the bad boys awake at night, singing bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do?, whatcha gonna do when we come for you? Yes, that is at least encouraging, that Mr. Romney recognizes how someone else has once again tried to gut our military, spending lots of that Tarp money on the "Roads and Bridges"? right, right, sure. Nothing would please me more than seeing Boeing move those machine tools onto the line in St. Louise, Mo., LockMart will have enough fun and business with the F-35. Boeing knows a thing or two about fighter aircraft, add STOVL to the Raptor and call it a sixth gen!