F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[thunderchief]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

As I said.

Is it a perfect replacement for all of those aircraft? No.

But where it has weaknesses compared directly to some of those, it has other strengths that will override those.

It will have far more stealth than any of the aircraft it is replacing. It will be as agile as any of them. It will be the most network centric fighter/attack aircraft ever built allowing it to communicate with and/or control other aircraft or their weapons like a mini-AWACS and allow it to be a significant force multiplier with other aircraft and UAVs.

The F-35 is going to perform far better than most people believe precisely because of its ability to have situational awareness of the battle space like no other, and to be able to then use that huge advantage to great effect.

I agree however, that for pure air superiority, the US should have at least 300 F-22s. That's still possible, though as time goes on, in a few years, the time it would take to restart that line and get there will be overcome by events as the 6th generation aircraft come into being.

Let's get back in perspective : F-35 is a winner of JSF program . Original aim of the program was replacement of F-16, older F/A-18 (i.e. non-Super Hornets) , A-10 and Harriers. Last requirement basically ruined shape of the aircraft (fat, stubby wings , low max speed) . Although original goal was to create jack of all trades (master of none) aircraft , JSF was never meant to be universal, one-to-replace-them-all fighter.

In fact, JSF was to be part of JSF& ATF combo and ATF is of course F-22. Original plan was that USAF would procure 650 ATFs and they were supposed to replace all of F-15s . Also, NATF (naval ATF ) was planed to replace F-14s , it was dropped when Soviet Union dissolved .

In a current situation, with budget constraints, restart of F-22 production is advisable but very unlikely. Furthermore, even production of aircraft like Super Hornet will end . I don't know about F-15E , but is unlikely they would continue much further, as far as I know USAF doesn't buy them any more . Practically this means that for a foreseeable future, F-35 will be only fighter aircraft produced in US . Therefore, any flaw, any potential weakness and tactics against F-35 could have negative impact on whole US military doctrine and potential to wage war. Caveat emptor .

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Let's get back in perspective :

I cannot speak for you, but I was never out of perspective.

F-35 is a winner of JSF program . Original aim of the program was replacement of F-16, older F/A-18 (i.e. non-Super Hornets) , A-10 and Harriers. Last requirement basically ruined shape of the aircraft (fat, stubby wings , low max speed) . JSF was never meant to be universal, one-to-replace-them-all fighter.

Actually, the JSF was meant to do exactly what you say. Replace F-16s, replace A-10s, replace Harriers and replace F-18s.

And it is going to do that.

It was meant to be able to work for all three branches, and it is going to do that.

It was meant to be 5th generation and stealthy, and it is going to do that.

It was meant to bring new situational awareness and communicative technologies to the fore, and it is going to do that.

In fact, JSF was to be part of JSF& ATF combo and ATF is of course F-22. Original plan was that USAF would procure 650 ATFs and they were supposed to replace all of F-15s . Also, NATF (naval ATF ) was planed to replace F-14s , it was dropped when Soviet Union dissolved .

Yes, that is correct.

In a current situation, with budget constraints, restart of F-22 production is advisable but very unlikely. Furthermore, even production of aircraft like Super Hornet will end . I don't know about F-15E , but is unlikely they would continue much further, as far as I know USAF doesn't buy them any more . Practically this means that for a foreseeable future, F-35 will be only fighter aircraft produced in US . Therefore, any flaw, any potential weakness and tactics against F-35 could have negative impact on whole US military doctrine and potential to wage war. Caveat emptor .

Well, the F-22 will remain the top of the line fighter that it well into the 2030s. For the Air Force, it is not likely that the 6th gen aircraft will come along until the latter end of that time frame. Which means the F-22 when it starts being replaced will have served for about 30 years.

The Super Hornet also will need to be replaced in the 2030s, which is precisely when the Navy's new 6th generation aircraft will be coming online.

All of that is already planned for that foreseeable future.

What the US has now is this:

- No more EA-8B Prowlers are being built and there are still about 140 of those aircraft.
- No more AV-8B Harrier aircraft are being built and there are 100 of those aircraft.
- No more A-10s Warthogs are being built and there are about 340 of those aircraft.
- No more F-15C Eagles will be built and there are approximately 250 of those.
- No more F-15E Strike Eagles are being built. There are approximately 220 of them.
- No more F-16 Falconss are being built and there are over 1,200 of those aircraft.
- No more F/A-18C/D Hornets will be built and there are about 630 of those.
- No more F/A-18E/F Super Hornet are being built and there are right at 500 aircraft. However,
they will most probably be upgraded to the new Advanced Super Hornet standard with conformal
fuel tanks and the stealth pod and other enhancements.
- New EA/-18G Growlers being built. Right now there are about 100 of them with another 115 on order.

So, as far as fighter/attack aircraft, the US Air Force, US Marines, and US Navy have approximately 3,500 fighter/attack aircraft.

Once all of the F-35s are built they are planning, in the late 2020s to early 2030s the US will have approximately

1,740 F-35As
260 F-35Cs
340 F-35Bs
195 F-22s
500 F/A-18E/Fs
215 E/A-18Gs

At that point, the US will have gone from approximately 3,500 aircraft of nine different types, to approximately 3,250 aircraft of six types where three of them are from the same basic airframe...and of those 3,250 aircraft, 2,535 of them will be 5th generation aircraft, and another 500 will have been transformed into 4++ generation aircraft.

Although the US will be in a good position, what the US will have given up in the exchange is 250 high performance 4th generation air superiority fighters that will not be replaced until the 6th generation aircraft come along. Whether the F-35s will be able to fill that gap is a viable question.

However, when I look at the numbers the US will to bring to the table...and their capabilities...I am not overly concerned.

For example, Russia's numbers have stabilized and will remain at about 1,300 fighter/attack aircraft.

China's numbers are currently less than that in terms of 4th generation aircraft. If they continue to build and modernize and replace as they are doing, they may get up to 2,000 operational 4th and 5th generation aircraft...most of those being 4th generation...in the same time frame.

So in essence, in the late 2020s to early 2030s it is likely that the US will field as many fighter and attack aircraft as Russia and China combined. But a much larger percentage of US aircraft will be 5th generation aircraft with stronger situational awareness, higher stealth, and newer technology.

...and by that time, yours truly here will be very near taking a flight to much higher climes, and probably past worrying about such mortal cares and concerns.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Gentlemen this is a F-35 thread. We have a F-22 thread. I am moving the F-22 posts to that thread. If your F-22 post is missing here, it is probably because it has been moved over there.

BACK ON TOPIC

 

[FORBIN]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

It was planned in 2012 the last A delivered in 2037, B/C 2032 but with sequestration the last orders are inferior of about 15 %, so the aircrafts will be delivered later.

 

[Inst]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

I actually like Jeff Head's argument about the F-35, where the big advantage of the F-35 is its vast scale. The J-20 will not likely exceed 400 units produced, the PAK-FA might go a bit higher, but for US air dominance between now and the emergence of 6th generation aircraft simply having a lot more stealth aircraft than your opponent might do the trick.

 

[thunderchief]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Assuming numerical superiority over potential adversaries is a very dangerous thing to do, and very un-American I may add. Sure, there are plans to build certain number of F-35s , but as we know those plans change and usually for the worse .
Even more dangerous is trying to extrapolate how many planes would hypothetical opponents have . For example, we do not know which countries will procure PAK FA beside Russia and India, would Russian offer lighter 5.gen fighter or would they go for modernization of Flanker and offer Su-35 as a cheaper alternative ? China is even bigger enigma. What would happen with J-20 and J-31 , would they go for even more advanced versions of J-10 ?

American air combat philosophy so far was always to have best planes and best pilots - not to rely on numerical superiority. It seems to me that was changed with F-35 . Implicitly more and more people admit that F-35 may not have big advantage even against current competition (Rafale,Typhoon,Su-35) not to mention future fighters like PAK FA and J-20. We shall see.

 

[advill]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

The real test for the US F-35 will eventually come when the aircraft actually engages a worthy opponent. The Australians, Japanese and others have made their assessments before placing their orders for the F-35. They have their experts that made their technological recommendations and also costs. "Economies of Scale" would have been an important consideration, and importantly cooperation among the friendly allies. I place my bet on the F-35.

Assuming numerical superiority over potential adversaries is a very dangerous thing to do, and very un-American I may add. Sure, there are plans to build certain number of F-35s , but as we know those plans change and usually for the worse .
Even more dangerous is trying to extrapolate how many planes would hypothetical opponents have . For example, we do not know which countries will procure PAK FA beside Russia and India, would Russian offer lighter 5.gen fighter or would they go for modernization of Flanker and offer Su-35 as a cheaper alternative ? China is even bigger enigma. What would happen with J-20 and J-31 , would they go for even more advanced versions of J-10 ?

American air combat philosophy so far was always to have best planes and best pilots - not to rely on numerical superiority. It seems to me that was changed with F-35 . Implicitly more and more people admit that F-35 may not have big advantage even against current competition (Rafale,Typhoon,Su-35) not to mention future fighters like PAK FA and J-20. We shall see.

 

[Jeff Head]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

Assuming numerical superiority over potential adversaries is a very dangerous thing to do, and very un-American I may add.

American air combat philosophy so far was always to have best planes and best pilots - not to rely on numerical superiority.

My point was not that the US had a strategy to throw a lot of planes at an adversary to win by attrition.

My point was that the reality of the situation over the next 10-15 years is very clear. One does not have to extrapolate much.

We know what is meant to be built and we know what needs to be retired. With the F-35 those plans are coming much more into focus. It is clear that the US total inventory of overall aircraft when compared to its top two potential adversaries at this point, is going to remain very, very sizable. And over the next 15 years, a larger and larger percentage of the US inventory will revert over to 5th gen aircraft.

It is also clear from their history and their strategy that China and Russia do not intend to build any such numbers.

As a result I indicated that some of the clear holes that are developing in the near term for US numbers do not overly concern mew.

That is all. The US strategy to have the best technology equipment, the nest strategizing possible, and the best training will continue and not change.

It seems to me that was changed with F-35 .

No, not at all.

The US currently fields well over 1,200 F-16s, 500 F-15s, 500 Super Hornets, about 700 Hornets, something over 180 F-22s...not to mention A-10s and AV-8Bs (which account for another 400). The numerical advantage right now is staggering.

My point is that that advantage (in addition to the others qualities you mention) is not really going to change much in the next 15 or more years.

 

[Inst]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

More correctly, the United States has not aimed to win by attrition since WW2. Against the Germans, the US military was facing a better-trained, better-led (at the officer level, not at the politician level, to a large extent Hitler solved the Hitler problem), and better-equipped army than its own forces. Fighting the Japanese, the United States ended up fighting a highly-trained and highly-experienced army that, while at par or superior on the first day of the war, simply could not replace its losses or keep up its rate of military development.

Regarding the F-35, it should outperform 4th and 4.5th gen fighters by a significant margin, if not as great as with the F-22, in BVR, and in WVR EODAS, provided it works properly, means that almost any fighter that enters WVR range would get targeted and destroyed independent of maneuverability.

The problem with the F-35 having poor kinematics is more defensive; by being relatively unmaneuverable, the F-35 has a tougher time escaping enemy missiles and evading missile locks.

And of course, no matter how disappointing F-35 kinematics may be, the USAF is still the best-trained and most-experienced air force on the planet.

 

[FORBIN]

re: F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Thread

US F-35 new orders update :

FY 2014 : 29 : 19A/6B/4C same number as 2013
FY 2015 requested : 34 : 26A/6B/2C it was planned 42 : 30/8/4

The Administration’s proposed FY2015 defense budget would fund the procurement of 26 F-
35As for the Air Force, 6 F-35Bs for the Marine Corps, and 2 F-35Cs for the Navy. This is 4
fewer As, 2 fewer Bs, and 2 fewer Cs than projected in the FY2014 budget.
In a briefing to CRS and other analysts on February 28, 2014, the Air Force budget director stated
that 2 of the 4 F-35As cut from the FY2015 budget were due to cuts in the FY2014 defense
appropriations bill, and the other 2 were deferred due to overall budget issues, not program
performance.

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