F-22 Raptor Thread

[thunderchief]

They bought the last 820 i960MX chips off the line prior to the line shutting down, which was enough to produce only 155 F-22's.

They bought last chips of the type produced , but that doesn't mean they didn't bought any of the same kind before I'm willing to bet they procured more . Only problem could be shelf-life . Semiconductors have nasty propensity to deteriorate wherever you used them or not . Therefore , chip produced lets say 30 years ago may malfunction after few hours of use although it was never used before that (spent 30 years in storage) .

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

It looks to me like the revision to air intake on the 2011 would significantly enhance the pilot's downward visibility over his shoulder.

That might be a main reason for the revision rather than some aerodynamic concern.

The main reason cited for the even larger change in the intake and forward fuselage design between YF-22 prototype and pre-production F-22 (Intake substantially shortened, cockpit moved forward 18 inches) was also improvements to pilots downward visibility over the shoulder.

While that may be plausible Chuck, I believe there are sound reasons for reducing the size and the angle of the inlets, mainly reducing the air-flow, and allowing the engine to perform better at high A-O-A... I would like to see a source on the F-22 intake changes if you would be so kind????

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

It looks to me like the revision to air intake on the 2011 would significantly enhance the pilot's downward visibility over his shoulder.

That might be a main reason for the revision rather than some aerodynamic concern.

The main reason cited for the even larger change in the intake and forward fuselage design between YF-22 prototype and pre-production F-22 (Intake substantially shortened, cockpit moved forward 18 inches) was also improvements to pilots downward visibility over the shoulder.

Actually Chuck the inlets on the production F-22 were moved aft 1.5 ft to reduce weight and enhance stability and control.
The nose was blunted and the cockpit moved forward for enhanced radar performance, the report notes that it may also have "slightly" improved "over the nose" vision. I am certain there is an engineering report on the J-20 citing the same type of very specific reasons for changing the inlets, it could well be for improved performance at high angle of attack or an RCS reduction, or to improve engine performance in certain flight regimes, there is always a reason. Brat

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Bob Gates said China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020.

...if you take it as face value as what a layman would mean, no 5th Gen means NO 5th generation as in ziltch, kaput, nein, nyet in which case he was way off in his prediction and clearly Shenyang/PLAAF proved him wrong by flying J-20 right in his face!

I think when Gates made the comment, it was pretty clear to all listening that the F-22 was being shut down because he did not see any reason to have more than what we already had because there were not going to be any 5th generation competition for it.

As one who watches these things closely, it was clear to me at least, that his strong opinion, which directly influenced the F-22 decision, was that particularly China would not even fly a 5th generation fighter before 2020. He knows, and we all knew what that would mean if he were right.

An initial prototype like the J-20 first flying in 2020 would be a signal to the US and give the US probably something like eight years before the first prototypes would become deployed, front line aircraft.

So, when he got to China and they flew one for him...it was quite the shock.

 

[latenlazy]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I think when Gates made the comment, it was pretty clear to all listening that the F-22 was being shut down because he did not see any reason to have more than what we already had because there were not going to be any 5th generation competition for it.

As one who watches these things closely, it was clear to me at least, that his strong opinion, which directly influenced the F-22 decision, was that particularly China would not even fly a 5th generation fighter before 2020. He knows, and we all knew what that would mean if he were right.

An initial prototype like the J-20 first flying in 2020 would be a signal to the US and give the US probably something like eight years before the first prototypes would become deployed, front line aircraft.

So, when he got to China and they flew one for him...it was quite the shock.

The J-20 flew about 2-4 years earlier than everyone expected, including us here and at CDF, and I have no reason to believe that the Pentagon believed any differently from what we did. We were ALL waiting on the engine, and it turned out China decided not to. If it was a shock, the shock was about a difference of 2-4 years, and not a decade.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

The J-20 flew about 2-4 years earlier than everyone expected, including us here and at CDF, and I have no reason to believe that the Pentagon believed any differently from what we did. We were ALL waiting on the engine, and it turned out China decided not to. If it was a shock, the shock was about a difference of 2-4 years, and not a decade.

Phrase it however you wish, Gates said what he said, and made very critical decisions regarding US defense based on those things, latenlazy.

He may have known more...but if he did, he did not say so at the time. He was made to look the fool to the American people at the very least. And the F-22 had been shut down, an aircraft that should still be being produced, because he indicated there was not going to be any need of it.

Do you think the PRC will stop their production of J-20s at 185 aircraft once they go into production?

 

[latenlazy]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Phrase it however you wish, Gates said what he said, and made very critical decisions regarding US defense based on those things, latenlazy.

He may have known more...but if he did, he did not say so at the time. He was made to look the fool to the American people at the very least. And the F-22 had been shut down, an aircraft that should still be being produced, because he indicated there was not going to be any need of it.

Do you think the PRC will stop their production of J-20s at 185 aircraft once they go into production?

I do not think that the F-22 was shut down because Gates thought that there would be no competing designs until 2020 (After all, even if they didn't anticipate the J-20, there was still the T-50, which every military analyst seemed to have more confidence), nor do I think he based his decision over the F-22 on when China would or wouldn't be getting their own stealth fighter. There were MUCH bigger reasons that relate to both the military and national budgets, cost overruns of the program, and (from what I gathered at the time of the F-22's shutdown) costs related to how difficult it was to upgrade the platform, and the compounding effect of making the F-35 not only the lo option, but an alternative to replace the USAF's aging fleet from conception. At best whether other countries were fielding competing designs played at the margins. Either way, the way I see it, if the need were absolutely there they could restart the F-22's production (though it would be costly), or expedite the development of a future platform. I was dismayed that the F-22 was cancelled, but the reasons for it are not invalid.

Truth be told, I do not think the PRC will produce any more than 200 or 300 J-20s (I could be completely wrong of course), in part because their 4.5 generation fighters are newer frames that will have decades more use in them so there's no pressure to replace aging planes, and in part because they need such a capable fighter to only fulfill regional concerns, and not global ones.

 

[kwaigonegin]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I do not know what is the big fuss going on with what Mr Gates actually said or had done. I mean, at that time, the US had the best plane in the form of F-22 and there is no one near. The J-20 flew... yes, but it was a prototype at that time. and even when J-20 finally made it to the production line in 2020 and flew in greater number, I don't think the US is going to be in any sort of a trouble.

We do have to take note that the US had the technology base, and money (although not as much now) to support newer projects... and who knows they do have newer and better projects going in full steam now. By 2020 (another 6 more years) when the J-20 started flying, I am very sure that the US would have better aircraft than their F-22 flying too.

Unless you consider the F35 to be 'better' than the Raptor, I'm afraid there is nothing coming down the pipeline anytime soon. Now that's not to say we don't have some exotic aircrafts flying above Groom Lake or other specialized vehicles doing secret missions on a moonless night but as far as mass production fighters go, at this point in time all our eggs are pretty much in the Lighting's basket. I just don't see any new fighters coming online by 2020 or even beyond that.

I may be wrong but I think it won't be till 2030 at the earliest before we even see another new fighter model coming online to equip America's armed forces.

 

[Nightsky]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

He may have known more...but if he did, he did not say so at the time. He was made to look the fool to the American people at the very least. And the F-22 had been shut down, an aircraft that should still be being produced, because he indicated there was not going to be any need of it.

As weird as it may sound, I think F22 was stopped, because it already is out of date. I reckon the follow-up is probably pilotless and probably on the verge of being operational or already operational.

Why we haven't seen it? How long has it taken for the public to see the F-117? And that was piloted, so a hell of a lot more potential for it being leaked.

I would not be surprised if an operational successor of the F22 and maybe B2, both some sort of drone / jet mix, are already in their hangars waiting to be deployed. The area of piloted military planes will come to an end. Soon.

China is probably also already working on pilotless planes, making the J20 some sort of a "bridge plane"

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

As weird as it may sound, I think F22 was stopped, because it already is out of date. I reckon the follow-up is probably pilotless and probably on the verge of being operational or already operational.

Why we haven't seen it? How long has it taken for the public to see the F-117? And that was piloted, so a hell of a lot more potential for it being leaked.

I would not be surprised if an operational successor of the F22 and maybe B2, both some sort of drone / jet mix, are already in their hangars waiting to be deployed. The area of piloted military planes will come to an end. Soon.

China is probably also already working on pilotless planes, making the J20 some sort of a "bridge plane"

Time to crawl out from under that cabbage leaf little feller, none of this happens in a vacuum, readers of the AFM were NOT surprised by "Have Blue", and from the ATFs inception in 1986, until its IOC in 2005 was almost 20 years. Nor is the F-22 "out of date" as it remains the most capable fighter aircraft on the planet, and will be for the foreseeable future.

As for "pilotless aircraft" the F-22s were there to protect the "pilotless aircraft", not vica-versa, and for the record, let me state unequivacably, there are NO hangers full of follow on aircraft, fighters or bombers waiting in hangers, at Groom Lake or anywhere else for that matter. Air Force Brat

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