F-22 Raptor Thread

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
To date the only major functional issues with raptor have been lack of numbers, lack of a off bore sight helmet and a oxygen generator issue.
it hardly seems the model of failure.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Oh please, cut the infantile quibble. "Too good" is just a pitiful fanboy euphemism for "suboptimal blend of performance characteristics and need for actual need", which really means exactly the same for real adult purposes as "not food enough".
Could you maybe ratchet it back a notch, Chuck?
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Many people think even the insistence on TVC during F-22 development was a mistake.

Actually Chuck, I don't really think Col. Niemi would agree with this post either??? do you???, guess you didn't see the nice things he said about the Raptor??? you know, where he calls the F-22 "a Superb air-to-air fighter"????
 
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chuck731

Banned Idiot
To date the only major functional issues with raptor have been lack of numbers, lack of a off bore sight helmet and a oxygen generator issue.
it hardly seems the model of failure.

The decision to postpone helmet mounted sight is a recognition of the fact that all the hype around TVC and hyper maneuverability aside, close combat has dropped far down the list in importance amongst the role the F-22 might be asked to play. This has to be taken in the context of how much the f-22's overall design emphasized close combat capability and sacrificed other important features such as range, mission versatility, even some degree of supercruise to achieve it.

This in turn is a recognition that cost of f-22's close combat capability was uneconomical, in the sense that while a impressive degree of individual superiority was indisputably achieved, the cost of this individual superiority was so great it threatened collective superiority. So the f-22's individual superiority in close combat is best for America overall if not put to real large scale test in battle. An analogy of Panther vs T-34 comes to mind.

So for a massive investment in a feature that is, while impressive, too expensive to be used, f-22 definitely sacraficed other features, like range, which would certain have been useful and frequently used if available. This is certainly a model for overall specification and project direction failure.

As to whether f-22 was a big Lockheed fraud, not for this reason. The fact that the airforce insisted so much be sacraficed for a role by a fighter too expensive to play that role was the culprit.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Chuck off bore missile shot requires a missile that can engage off bore, for the USAF that would demand the Aim9x block2. Aim 9X only entered service in 2003 and block 2 only became available in 2008 in addition in order to use it from a stealthily internal carry you need lock on after launch and that is still in development. The USAF was going to test deployment of the scorpion helmet mounted sight back in 2011 but then the budgets got slashed as what everyone in Washington said was not going to happen happened and sequestration kicked in. Add to that the fact that the last major air to air operations for the USAF were in the 1990s over Serbia and the political motivations to paint raptor as a relic of the cold war and ta da budgetary fights. Raptors price tag due to slashing of numbers makes upgrades a hard sell.
now you are saying that the fact that they postponed the helmet sifmght is proof that close in fights are not necessary. I reply that that depends on rules of engagement. In the coalition based conflicts we have seen lately longer range engagements have been ruled out as line of sight identification has been demanded to prevent blue on blue attack. So you need to close range. Add to this that the vast majority of American war leadership has been locked in operation enduring freedom and operation Iraqi freedom. This has meant less emphasis on air superiority and more on drone strikes.

you argue that range is a weakness for raptor. How far does she need to go? Your never going to see her or any other fighter circumnavigate the globe without top offs. She was built to defend the continental united states of America as a replacement for F15.

now could raptor's de improved? Hell yes. She should have a IRST, additional radar coverage, a helmet mounted cueing system and lock on after launch missiles. With a longer range meteor class missile in the main bay, low observable fuel drop tanks and a lot more in the fleet. As she stands raptor is the standard to which all Gen 5 fighters is judged. She is the only operational Gen five in the sky's and will make the day of any rival.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
So for a massive investment in a feature that is, while impressive, too expensive to be used, f-22 definitely sacraficed other features, like range, which would certain have been useful and frequently used if available. This is certainly a model for overall specification and project direction failure.

As to whether f-22 was a big Lockheed fraud, not for this reason. The fact that the airforce insisted so much be sacraficed for a role by a fighter too expensive to play that role was the culprit.


I understand your arguments about the cost vs. mission role concept, but the fact of the matter is that the US has a healthy viable stealth programs to test and development further along. Why do you think they came up with the F-35 JSF? To fit in with those lack of mission roles that the F-22 don't have. There will never be a one stealth fighter Jack AND King of all trades type.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
...and, if you couldn't touch dat (from my earlier F-22 post), den, no one was ever going to ever...no how, no way...touch dis!

yf23-02.jpg


Others wiew for this unusual fighter, F-22 is more classic for her forms, however he remains a prototype.

Not vectored thrust as the F-22.

Carry less AAM as F-22 but definitely 4 AIM-120 compressed.

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