F-22 Raptor Thread

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I understand your arguments about the cost vs. mission role concept, but the fact of the matter is that the US has a healthy viable stealth programs to test and development further along. Why do you think they came up with the F-35 JSF? To fit in with those lack of mission roles that the F-22 don't have. There will never be a one stealth fighter Jack AND King of all trades type.

Actually that Jack-of all Trades Raptor will be conducting a fly-by at Dubai International Airshow this week, it will join a C-130j and an F-15E that are on static display, a B-1b will also conduct a fly-by, so keep your heads UP, and watch your SIX! Raptor coming at ya! brat

Navy Reco and his crew over at Army Reco may be able to confirm that for me, hopefully you will get a little more for (our) money than one fast pass, but in case you don't ---Don't Blink!
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
The aircraft that will replace the F22 is already in the works it it not however decided if its going to manned or unmanned
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The aircraft that will replace the F22 is already in the works it it not however decided if its going to manned or unmanned
I believe the next air superiority fighter will definitely be manned. Software intelligence and reaction/comm speed will just not be ready by that time frame IMHO, and taking the intuitive, creative ability of the pilot out of the loop will not be possible by then.

It will look something close to this:


21stUSNFxx.jpg

 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Chief, I was initially very skeptical of the F-35 myself, labeling it the ThunderHogge II, an appellation it still deserves, but with the death of the Raptor, the F-35 will have to be good enough, and it will be. In my honest opinion it was/is a grave mistake to kill the Raptor, it was a political decision and not an Air Force decision, the cost of the Raptor was coming down and on a one to one basis, the Raptor is so much more airplane, well its not even on the same planet (hence my little pet joke, that the Raptor was built reverse engineering the alien bird from area 51), but given the Raptors obvious kinematic advantage, the F-35 avionics and airframe integration will be a game changer, and it will be a vast improvement over the current 4-4.5 gen aircraft. As you noted even the Mig-21 will benefit from these types of changes, but the F-35 is the "electric jet" to steal a phrase, and it is in fact built around its avionics. Jeff and Kwai have given you their take on this, and I believe that once we begin to see the F-35 "mix it up" with the four gens, we will see the benefit of the little ThunderHogge II. brat

F-22 died via supply chain obsolesce. The F-22's avionics used the old Intel i960MX processor for many key systems on the F-22, with the entire avionics system to be replaced in 2010. As a result, in 2003 the USAF bought up all the remaining MX chips from Intel (before they closed their line) and used that stock to complete the current production flight of aircraft. The new avionics suite was to be based on the F-35's architecture, but that too was cut somewhere between 2004 and 2006. So in order to produce more F-22s the USAF would be on the hook to pay for a major avionics upgrade program.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
F-22 died via supply chain obsolesce. The F-22's avionics used the old Intel i960MX processor for many key systems on the F-22, with the entire avionics system to be replaced in 2010. As a result, in 2003 the USAF bought up all the remaining MX chips from Intel (before they closed their line) and used that stock to complete the current production flight of aircraft. The new avionics suite was to be based on the F-35's architecture, but that too was cut somewhere between 2004 and 2006. So in order to produce more F-22s the USAF would be on the hook to pay for a major avionics upgrade program.

Well Point, in post 927 I specifically mention the F-22s archaic tech, while nearly impossible to integrate with more modern tech, it is also far more secure and difficult to "hack". So your suggesting that the F-22 production was cancelled by the inability to procure more processors, and that "may" have been a factor on the expense side, but since the F-22 remains the most capable fighter aircraft in the world do you really think if DOD wanted more processors, they would be unable to procure more??? The F-22 died because of politics pure and simple. The F-22 had far less "pork" than the up and coming F-35, which is loaded with PORK, the result is the F-22 lost out in the Barbeque, sorry. brat
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
Well Point, in post 927 I specifically mention the F-22s archaic tech, while nearly impossible to integrate with more modern tech, it is also far more secure and difficult to "hack". So your suggesting that the F-22 production was cancelled by the inability to procure more processors, and that "may" have been a factor on the expense side, but since the F-22 remains the most capable fighter aircraft in the world do you really think if DOD wanted more processors, they would be unable to procure more??? The F-22 died because of politics pure and simple. The F-22 had far less "pork" than the up and coming F-35, which is loaded with PORK, the result is the F-22 lost out in the Barbeque, sorry. brat

Yup.. it's a real damn shame the Raptor was produced in such low numbers! It's probably one of the best fighters ever made only to have it canceled prematurely like that. I would even go as far as to say if the Raptor had been produced in significant and meaningful numbers, the JSF program may not have been even necessary until a much later date.
The F-22 will have total air dominance and superirority in any battlefield and with SEAD missions etc current Gen fighters like the Viper, F-15E and other ground pounders can easily go 'downtown' and do what they need to do with very little risk.

As it stands today with just about 180 or so airframes left they can't be in all places at one time if something major hits. Due to it's limited number the USAF is also less likely to deploy them and do 'mundane' tasks or missions for fear of losing them. If we have say 1000 F-22s they can be easily deployed or based in all major air bases in the world like the Vipers and Eagles were but as it is today only a couple squadrons are deployed.
 
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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Yup.. it's a real damn shame the Raptor was produced in such low numbers! It's probably one of the best fighters ever made only to have it canceled prematurely like that. I would even go as far as to say if the Raptor had been produced in significant and meaningful numbers, the JSF program may not have been even necessary until a much later date.
The F-22 will have total air dominance and superirority in any battlefield and with SEAD missions etc current Gen fighters like the Viper, F-15E and other ground pounders can easily go 'downtown' and do what they need to do with very little risk.

As it stands today with just about 180 or so airframes left they can't be in all places at one time if something major hits. Due to it's limited number the USAF is also less likely to deploy them and do 'mundane' tasks or missions for fear of losing them. If we have say 1000 F-22s they can be easily deployed or based in all major air bases in the world like the Vipers and Eagles were but as it is today only a couple squadrons are deployed.

Thats right Kwai, it was either or, and the groundpounders on the joint-chiefs love A2G, and with the JSF being loaded with financial incentives, not only in US, but for our partners, it is much more "attractive" and politically expedient to have everyone "feel the love. financially", to have canceled the JSF after our "partners" had invested a chunk of change would have been a diplomatic nightmare, as a result the lovely and far superior Raptor was "axed", sad but thats politics??? brat
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Well Point, in post 927 I specifically mention the F-22s archaic tech, while nearly impossible to integrate with more modern tech, it is also far more secure and difficult to "hack". So your suggesting that the F-22 production was cancelled by the inability to procure more processors, and that "may" have been a factor on the expense side, but since the F-22 remains the most capable fighter aircraft in the world do you really think if DOD wanted more processors, they would be unable to procure more??? The F-22 died because of politics pure and simple. The F-22 had far less "pork" than the up and coming F-35, which is loaded with PORK, the result is the F-22 lost out in the Barbeque, sorry. brat

The DOD was unable to procure more because Intel shut down the line in 2004. Even in the 1990's the Intel i960MX chip was considered to be obsolete and cannot support spiral developments beyond the Global Strike Enhanced programme. They bought the last 820 i960MX chips off the line prior to the line shutting down, which was enough to produce only 155 F-22's.

And when it became public that the F-22 was essentially on three separate spirals of sustainment and support, i.e. further development, it also should have dawned for most that just continuing production to existing spec was just not possible; a fourth spiral with new avionics to a price-tag in the $ double-digit billions and its own sustainment and support train would be needed for that.

The DOD can't buy any more i960MX chips because the factory that produces the chip no longer exists. The DOD planned to fund a replacement architecture, possibly based on the F-35, but that died quietly sometime after 2004. Thus any future production of the F-22 will require a new avionics architecture to be designed from the ground up for it. When the DOD capped production numbers, all momentum for a potential avionics upgrade was lost because of the very small fleet size.

In general the F-22's avionics package is a serious issue or will be if it hasn't already for the USAF. Its extremely difficult to upgrade, in part due to its use of ADA and its overall design. The F-22 basically had a very bad case of vendor lock in thanks to Boeing, which is a situation where a customer is dependent on a vendor for products and services, or is unable to use another vendor without substantial switching costs.

Originally it was supposed to be highly modular, then it was supposed to be replaced by a common architecture with the F-35, Then they looked at a skinning a second system above it, now they have funded LM to look at new approaches. The F-22's avionics system is a complete mess; its been $8 billion up to this point, and several more to get it to the 3.2 increment that will add a couple of key capabilities.

I would love to see what the USAF's long term view of the viability of the F-22 is going to look like. The three options are basically funding a massive avionics replacement program for the entire fleet, continue paying significant sums on new iterations that have relatively minor increases in capability, or canning the fighter altogether. I know the last one is unthinkable now, but I wonder how the AF might feel in 2020 when its getting fully functional F-35s and faces another costly upgrade to the F-22's avionics architecture.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The DOD was unable to procure more because Intel shut down the line in 2004.
Before the plant was closed down, given the realities at the time, the US would have procured as many chips as it thought necessary to sustain the fleet planned at the time.

They bought the last 820 i960MX chips off the line prior to the line shutting down, which was enough to produce only 155 F-22's.
This does not add up. At the time in 2004 the forecast for builds was higher. The decision to shut down the F-22 production line was taken after this time and the build capped at about 195 total aircraft (8 test and 187 in service). 185 aircraft are flying today...so only getting enough for 155 aircraft just does not add up.

The DOD can't buy any more i960MX chips because the factory that produces the chip no longer exists. The DOD planned to fund a replacement architecture, possibly based on the F-35, but that died quietly sometime after 2004. Thus any future production of the F-22 will require a new avionics architecture to be designed from the ground up for it. When the DOD capped production numbers, all momentum for a potential avionics upgrade was lost because of the very small fleet size.
And yet, as I said, the Cap happened after the dates you indicated and the number was higher than the 155...yet they are flying.

The three options are basically funding a massive avionics replacement program for the entire fleet, continue paying significant sums on new iterations that have relatively minor increases in capability, or canning the fighter altogether. I know the last one is unthinkable now, but I wonder how the AF might feel in 2020 when its getting fully functional F-35s and faces another costly upgrade to the F-22's avionics architecture.
As I said, when the military procures a system like this, they look out over the life of the product and procure enough of the critical parts needed to sustain it through its life.

So, making increments and changes beyond what was procured when they closed the thing down can be difficult, but maintaining what they had should be doable.

Also, although the factory for that chip is gone, given the amounts of money they are spending, if they were serious about the need, those chips, or something to replace them could be made. But, they can also come up with other solutions as you suggest. Making new chips, either the ones needed or new ones to replace them, for the fleet is probably going to be too expensive politically unless a decision was taken to build another 100-200 aircraft.

The US could definitely do what was necessary for that if we had the political will to do so. But, sadly, that is what is lacking and so the program will move forward, probably with very expensive, incremental improvements.

In fact, the current plan for upgrades is to go to 3.2A in 2014 which will focus on electronic warfare, communications and identification. Increment 3.2B is planned for 2017. Increment 3.2C (which I believe has now been changed to 3.3) is planned for 2019. That 3.3 update in fact targets starting the migration of avionics to an open platform, allowing features to be added at later dates. I believe the current budget to get to 3.3 is something like 6.9 billion. 3.3 is now slated to be bid out.
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Before the plant was closed down, given the realities at the time, the US would have procured as many chips as it thought necessary to sustain the fleet planned at the time.

Intel advised the DoD in mid 2003 that without further orders, they were going to shut down the line in January 2004 as Intel believed that the the microprocessor was no longer a viable product for the company.


This does not add up. At the time in 2004 the forecast for builds was higher. The decision to shut down the F-22 production line was taken after this time and the build capped at about 195 total aircraft (8 test and 187 in service). 185 aircraft are flying today...so only getting enough for 155 aircraft just does not add up.
The Air Force planned for the remaining production aircraft to include a new computer architecture and avionics processor needed to support the final two planned spirals-Global Strike Full and Enhanced Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance.
 
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